Xalian71's Maps

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sektor2111
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Re: Xalian71's Maps

Post by sektor2111 »

Next point - concerning Kickers.
Stock Kicker has nothing to do with Bots. Imagine that a lion from Africa is not dreaming at penguins from South Pole, he doesn't know about them.
Kicker is a trigger, not a Navigation Point, Bot cannot even see it - you need an attached code for that. Kickers are working based on Velocity changes - a sort of kidnapping. However, these can be used somehow. People that are having a good observation spirit and focusing in multiple directions perhaps can figure how Epic managed Kicker Jump in CTF-Coret - some mappers did them well, also I think I still have some of edits in this regard. Resuming shorter - Epic has a "live" tutorial about kickers right in a stock map which can be studied any time (it doesn't matter the hour). There are routes linked, way or placing nodes toward kickers - not items and PathNodes in kicker's radius. The true story which I described already is to check maps - stock on purpose. From stock you can learn how things were done - well if are working, wrong if something was used but it seems that is not working. Guaranteed worth spending time for small checks.
Xalian71
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Re: Xalian71's Maps

Post by Xalian71 »

Thanks fudgonaut. I thought I had it figured out when the Bots started going for the kickers again, and I mean all of the kickers, not just favoring one any more.

But sadly their enthusiasm for the kickers was actually in overdrive to the point where they favored going for a kicker over carrying their opponent's flag back to their base.

So that being the case I will definitely explore how swJumpPads work and replace the kickers in my map with those.

How amazing that you played my DJ map back in the day! I created that map on my friend's 486 IBM PC. I didn't even have a PC at that point.

Me being me, as soon as I spotted the BUILD.EXE file that came with the Duke Nukem 3D game I wanted to know all about it. A way to be creative - I'm in!

Automatically merged

Hey thanks a lot sektor.

I've placed LiftCentre and LiftExit actors on or near the kickers which, in editor Paths View, now shows a lattice of links between all the kickers and the Bots are now going for them.

The problem now is they are not taking their opponent's flag back to their base, but instead going for another jump to their opponent's side.

Also some Bots are still committing suicide in the chasm and I don't know why.
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sektor2111
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Re: Xalian71's Maps

Post by sektor2111 »

Xalian71 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:57 pm Also some Bots are still committing suicide in the chasm and I don't know why.
Without to see anything I think some of Navigation Point is too close to kicker. What is about more exactly ? Pawn is moving to whatever Lift_Etc thing. Right before to reach there pawn is thrown away. In that moment Pawn is attempting to reach in Navigation spot but kicker denied it. Pawn during flight will attempt to get back. Because it is thrown with powerful force, it will fail in both cases - at retrying back or forward.
Depending on kicking situation, it might be needed multiple routes taking care to have exit side (landing zone) without incoming paths (a bit more lifted from ground) and landing spot established out of a kicker range or else it gets messy being thrown again elsewhere.
Xalian71
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Re: Xalian71's Maps

Post by Xalian71 »

Thanks for that sektor. I took Fudgonaut's advice and wised up on swJumpPads. He was right on the money. They're great, so I've used them and they're working perfectly. The Bots don't seem to be committing suicide any more.

I've changed the player start layout of the DivideAndJumper map now too. The Bots seem to be doing what they need to but they're still favoring certain jump pads even though the bot pathing is the same around all of the jump pads, so it's a mystery to me.

I've tried putting health boxes near the jump pads to lure them but they ignored them so I removed them.

Also, I've removed the Redeemers but I don't really know what weapons are best for CTF maps, nor how many health boxes are too few or too many. I'm pretty sure what I've got there now is not the best so suggestions would be great.

The map should hopefully be suitably playable with the Bots now so I've uploaded the updated version and here's the link: https://www.mediafire.com/file/1agtsi3c ... r.unr/file
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sektor2111
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Re: Xalian71's Maps

Post by sektor2111 »

Xalian71 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:12 am still favoring certain jump pads even though the bot pathing is the same around all of the jump pads, so it's a mystery to me.
Then try solve the mystery by studying what "AlternatePath" actors are doing and their settings.
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OjitroC
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Re: Xalian71's Maps

Post by OjitroC »

Hint : there are no AlternatePath actors.

The Jump Pads are much better and work well :tu: Spreading out the PlayerStarts is also a good idea I think - makes it more difficult to target spawning 'players'.

A few minor things :
1 No ammo for the rifle and shock rifle? Perhaps none is needed but if WeaponsStay is True then Players/Bots can only pick up one rifle and will run out of ammo?
2 The rifle is the Unreal Rifle and not the Botpack.SniperRifle - is that deliberate? It doesn't matter particularly as it gets swapped in-game but would matter if you had ammo in the map;
3 ScriptLog: Red FlagBase with blue skin ScriptLog: FlagBase0 Team = 0 Skin = Botpack.Skins.JpflagB;
4 No DefensePoints? Might be useful?

There are a few things that I think would be relevant if the map is played on-line
Spoiler
ScriptLog: Teleporter without bNoDelete:
ScriptLog: swjumppad8
ScriptLog: swjumppad9
ScriptLog: swjumppad10
ScriptLog: swjumppad11
ScriptLog: swjumppad12
ScriptLog: swjumppad13
ScriptLog: swjumppad14
ScriptLog: swjumppad15

ScriptLog: Teleporter with bHidden = True and bAlwaysRelevant = False:
ScriptLog: Teleporter0
ScriptLog: Teleporter1

Note Also :
ScriptLog: LevelInfo.Author is empty
ScriptLog: LevelInfo.Title is 'Untitled'
ScriptLog: LevelInfo.Song not set
ScriptLog: LevelInfo.Screenshot not set
Xalian71
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Re: Xalian71's Maps

Post by Xalian71 »

Thanks OjitroC for those observations and suggestions.

I've added several more weapons with ammo.

The Unreal rifle was a mistake. I've corrected it.

I've checked several mapping tutorials and they all say the blue flag at the red base in the editor doesn't matter since the game ensures it's red, and it works correctly.

I've added defense points at each flag base.

For all teleporters I've set bNoDelete and bAlwaysRelevant to true.

I've also added author and title info, and added a screenshot. I don't know anything about adding a song.

I also tried using alternate path nodes to make the Bots use the nearest jump pad after grabbing the flag but it didn't work so I've removed them.

For the most part the Bots do what they should so I'm going to have to leave it there because I'm spending too much time on this map and neglecting other things I should be doing.

If anyone wishes to alter this map in the editor to improve the way the Bots work then please go ahead.

Thanks so much again to all who have taken the time to test it, analyze it and suggest improvements. I'm truly grateful.

This is the link to my final update of this map: https://www.mediafire.com/file/9powf95k ... r.unr/file
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sektor2111
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Re: Xalian71's Maps

Post by sektor2111 »

Xalian71 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:31 pm I've checked several mapping tutorials and they all say the blue flag at the red base in the editor doesn't matter since the game ensures it's red, and it works correctly.
Making Flag RED in Editor is only a helper in maps with very identical looking bases in order to avoid confusions around PlayerStart DefensePoints AlternatePaths - so to speak it's aiming mapping process and to be honest it's not a run-time issue at all.
Xalian71 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:31 pm I'm going to have to leave it there because I'm spending too much time on this map
Here is the chapter where builders are helping to speed up and preventing mapper to work for months and still having chances to gain issues.
Here is a sample how to figure routing process. Bot spawns on PlayerStart0. Let's see the route assigned for RedFlag. It's always the same route except when is switching route to an enemy or something else. It's why in CTF routing is changed with the help of AlternatePaths - I still cannot figure why would be needed other way in this stage.
Ps0_FB0.PNG

Code: Select all

PathsDebug: Route Available from PlayerStart0 to FlagBase0 moving through 14 Paths.
Area is open, switching route through a more longer way it's only increasing chances to crawl more time and to get killed before to even jump on the other side... :?
Next stuff... Defending - perhaps mystical

Code: Select all

DefensePoint0: Searching...
DefensePoint0: Route Not Found from PlayerStart17...
DefensePoint1: Searching...
DefensePoint1: Route Not Found from PlayerStart17...
DefensePoint2: Searching...
DefensePoint2: Route Not Found from PlayerStart17...
DefensePoint3: Searching...
DefensePoint3: Route Not Found from PlayerStart17...
DefensePoint4: Searching...
DefensePoint4: Route Not Found from PlayerStart17...
DefensePoint5: Searching...
DefensePoint5: Route Not Found from PlayerStart17...
These are buried into ground - I don't get why would be needed this way. In other hand, sitting in spot allows enemy to eliminate defenders before even getting closer.
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Xalian71
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Re: Xalian71's Maps

Post by Xalian71 »

Thanks sektor. Of course I'm not a professional mapper at all. I was just tinkering with the editor when making my maps, learning as I went, using tutorials, etc. There's lots I don't know, like how to do the checks you're able to do so I wasn't aware of why things weren't working the way they should. My intention was really for humans to play, not Bots.

I never knew anything was buried in the ground. When I checked in the editor everything looked to be above the ground - the player starts, path nodes, weapons and health pick-ups.

Another issue I've noticed with the Bots is that some of them on the Blue team get stuck in the room that they teleport to for pick-ups, not knowing to use the teleporter there to get back, so the teams then become unbalanced, favoring advantage for the Red team.

Thanks again for analyzing my map. Perhaps if time affords I will work on it further but for now I have to leave it. There's a company CEO in Australia waiting for me to design improvements for items on his company website and I've barely started working it. Luckily he hasn't contacted me yet to ask how it's coming along. So I have to get into Blender 3D model mode in my mind and get creating models, animations and ultimately video clips converted to GIFs.