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[RELEASE] DM-Perihelion

Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:31 pm
by --=PsyXandeR=--
2 years in production. I originally wanted to make a CTF map but seeing that 1\2 of CTF layout pretty much exceeds about 2\3 of Ued Node Limit, I decided to go for DM arena.

http://www.unrealplayground.com/forums/ ... le&id=7927 <== Grab map here.

Screens :

Image
Image
Image

Enjoy and happy fragging!

Re: [RELEASE] DM-Perihelion

Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:52 pm
by Creavion
Project started: Sun Dec 21, 2008 :mrgreen:
First of all, CONGRATS for the final finishing of your map, Alex. Took really a long time, you know. :tongue:
Will give it a try.

Of course, map is awesome. What else needs to be said. Just wish, you would have released the map for our mappack several months ago. :ironic2:

Re: [RELEASE] DM-Perihelion

Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:13 pm
by --=PsyXandeR=--
You mean year ago Crev. :mrgreen: And thanks :)

Re: [RELEASE] DM-Perihelion

Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:43 pm
by Creavion
--=PsyXandeR=-- wrote:You mean year ago Crev. :mrgreen: And thanks :)
UT99.org Community Map Pack 2 Release Thread!
Postby Creavion ยป Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:08 pm
1,5 years.

Re: [RELEASE] DM-Perihelion

Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:06 pm
by GenMoKai
ZzZzZzZzZzzzz..... Huh what?! It's released?! Pinch me! I'm dreaming xD

Will test it when im back home

Re: [RELEASE] DM-Perihelion

Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:39 pm
by >@tack!<
nice work! i like it.
some things to mention.

the rock under the flakcannon part has a bsp hole.
the "tunnel" where you cant be but is visible, the bottom of it is a black texture. also at the udamage or somewhere when you look outside the window up you see a black texture of a "tunnel" too. dunno how to describe, but it would be nicer if it had some texture or was just not lit.

but its a really nice map, gjgjgjgjgjgjgj

Re: [RELEASE] DM-Perihelion

Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:36 pm
by Myth
Let's go:

Congrats on the release. It's a good map, I can't say that it's not, but I was expecting a better map.

The first word that comes into my mind is "repetitive". Maybe it's just me but I was expecting something exciting. Yeah sure, every area is different, you don't have the same rooms over and over again but you have the same yellow textures twisted up in a different way. With the same lighting. With the same trims. With the same floor texture. I have nothing against using the textures but this doesn't showcase it's true potential. The first thing I would have avoided are yellow lights. It looks like you have chosen yellow as both primary texture and primary lighting color. Then you have those blueish lights that you added for contrast. So now everything is saturated and gray where they overlap. Now let's use this particular lighting scheme on the whole map. Add these lights everywhere and now you have an over-lit map. Everything in the level has the same brightness. If you wouldn't have used the yellow textures you probably would have observed some of those ugly green patches of light. How about adding real contrast to the lighting? Some darker areas? Shadows? So the lighting is just 1 step better than flooding the whole level with white lights. It looks more rushed than... wait a second... I can't say rushed this was 2 years in production. Okay moving on to the geometry. Let's just pretend for a second that I love huge polygon amounts. The more the better the map looks. The first thing I've noticed that most of these polygons are trims. This map obviously relies on trims just to make it look decent. Do over-trimmed maps look better? I don't think so but most of you wouldn't agree with me here. But no doubt that they do look repetitive especially because you've limited yourself to a small number of textures. I imagine a lot of work went into making them. It must have been really physically exhausting doing the same things over and over until you reached the point that there are enough trims. I don't even want to bring up the copy paste at that background geometry. By comparing this to one of your previous maps DM-FOT-Adenora, I'd say it's almost the same story but with different layout and textures. What really disturbs me is that this map seems to be the weaker one. DM-FOT-Adenora is better in every aspect. When someone does the same thing over and over again, shouldn't it get better and better?
22 megabytes? For what? I don't even want to check. Having better computers, more ram and faster internet is not an excuse. Oh and when you compress it it's just 9 megabytes? I wonder why it's compressed so well . . .

Edit: your old screenshots in the WIP thread look better.

Well I must say that this seems to be a rushed release. You've been steadily working on it and then just release it because you had enough of this and released it just to get it over with. I don't blame you. 2 years on a single map . . . inhuman.

What's that? Mapping is tiring and old and you just about learnt everything about unrealed 2.0? You've been doing the same thing for years now. No wonder it is. It's not a sweat shop. You're supposed to build something that's fresh and awesome. So here is a challenge to you.

Build a map that isn't made of trims.

Re: [RELEASE] DM-Perihelion

Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:10 pm
by Creavion
You know, HourKraden is a very limited texture package, the textures in general are already trim-looking.
Same Lighting? Pretty sure as mapper you have to keep a style within your maps, at least within DM maps. Actually he has used 3 light colours, the yellow ones, the blue ones and red lights. The textures are already yellow. For me its fine, it fits together, maybe I would have selected orange or even yellow as well. The yellow lights point the yellow textures somehow out. Reminds me of Quake 2. The strogg facilities were also kinda matching with the textures. Cyan (blue) is a pretty good contrast colour. And red lights are like you maybe know, sometimes just good for smaller areas. For me it is enough. Ok, with the shadows I agree with you, now where I think about it. And about the trims? This is just his selected style, most likely through the textures themself.
22 MB because of the detailed architecture and of course because Hourences did set his texture package with larger texture resolutions compared to IndusX and Pitroes. And since UEngine 1 does have any texture compression.. you know, what I want to say.

Re: [RELEASE] DM-Perihelion

Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:17 pm
by GenMoKai
@ Myth

To be short, he didnt worked 2 years full time... It has some long pauzes/lack of motivations (sorry alex... but its true) About the map size in megabytes i also dont care. If you have seen the latest maps lately... they are all getting bigger and bigger. So i think its more then normal

@ Alex

Good map, took you very long though :P Myth is maybe a bit right about the much yellow... BUT the texture is also yellow, i think you did rather a good job in trying to get it in something nice after all...
It has some good Z-axis stuff in it.. CAVES!! (i love caves) AND i say... a good use of trims (very much... but it will give you something special in this map!) And i really love that outside part... To bad i know how to use cheats/Ued... else i would think you also could walk outside the fences..

I think you did a good job

Re: [RELEASE] DM-Perihelion

Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:36 pm
by --=PsyXandeR=--
@>@tack!< : Thanks for comment. Yes I know there's one polygon missing in that flak cannon room but at least it is not gameplay-critical. I had to go through the trouble of fixing ICHs all over the place... and I had quite a lot of them. :tongue:

@Myth : Thanks quite a lot of feedback.
The first word that comes into my mind is "repetitive". Maybe it's just me but I was expecting something exciting. Yeah sure, every area is different, you don't have the same rooms over and over again but you have the same yellow textures twisted up in a different way. With the same lighting. With the same trims. With the same floor texture.
Are you suggesting that I should have given each room its own color like yellow in one room, blue in another and perhaps green in a third one? With this level I decided to stick to a theme and just go from there. Perhaps, if you are not satisfied with texturing, you could possibly release a special version for you with random Shane Church, UTTech1 and SGTech texes thrown in randomly.
Everything in the level has the same brightness. If you wouldn't have used the yellow textures you probably would have observed some of those ugly green patches of light. How about adding real contrast to the lighting? Some darker areas? Shadows? So the lighting is just 1 step better than flooding the whole level with white lights.
I suggest that you go and play UT3 first... and then get back to this map and think about contrast again. This was pretty much my attempt to mock up UT3 in terms of lighting and geometry. Yo are correct about shadows though but to be honest they would break gameplay. Just imagine a camper sitting with his ultra aimbotted sniper rifle in a dark corner; how fun would that be?
The first thing I've noticed that most of these polygons are trims. This map obviously relies on trims just to make it look decent.
Just give me and an example of some decent map that ISN'T flooded with trims and I will happily take a look at it. In fact, every level uses trims but they are not usually that visible due to textures. Now, as Crev has said and I totally agree with him, HourKraden Tex pack is all twisted around trims and panels. Therefore, in this case it would have been really hard, even impossible, to make something that doesn't look like spammed with trims.
I don't even want to bring up the copy paste at that background geometry. By comparing this to one of your previous maps DM-FOT-Adenora, I'd say it's almost the same story but with different layout and textures. What really disturbs me is that this map seems to be the weaker one. DM-FOT-Adenora is better in every aspect. When someone does the same thing over and over again, shouldn't it get better and better?
I have to give you credit over here. This map origianlly was intended to be Adenora-like particularly because I was not satisfied with a number of things. In fact, all I have done is taking certain design decisions from Adenora and making them a bit more crazy looking. In addition, this map was supposed to be a CTF map at first place but since I have pretty much reached 2\3s of Ued node limit with this part, CTF was automatically out of question.
Oh and when you compress it it's just 9 megabytes? I wonder why it's compressed so well . . .
Because I'm such a dumbass, could your Majesty explain what you have actually meant by that? Thank you very much.
Edit: your old screenshots in the WIP thread look better.
How can it look better if I haven't changed even a single bit of this map?
Well I must say that this seems to be a rushed release. You've been steadily working on it and then just release it because you had enough of this and released it just to get it over with.
Wasn't actaully working on it all the time. I was actualy out of UT enjoying competitive L4D2 gaming with my clan and kicking some major ass. Only like 1.5 months ago I decided to return and finish this map off.

@GenMoKai
To be short, he didnt worked 2 years full time... It has some long pauzes/lack of motivations (sorry alex... but its true) About the map size in megabytes i also dont care. If you have seen the latest maps lately... they are all getting bigger and bigger. So i think its more then normal
Fully agreed. And thanks for liking it. And thanks to Crev too. :mrgreen:

Re: [RELEASE] DM-Perihelion

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:22 am
by Myth
Just stop thinking in extremes. I didn't say to take random stuff and mix it up. I didn't say that trims are a sin and just by barely using it you go to hell. Go ahead and use trims. Shadows aren't pitch black. Aimbotters get banned.

Re: [RELEASE] DM-Perihelion

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:33 am
by Creavion
Myth wrote:Just stop thinking in extremes. I didn't say to take random stuff and mix it up. I didn't say that trims are a sin and just by barely using it you go to hell. Go ahead and use trims. Shadows aren't pitch black. Aimbotters get banned.
I'm bound to say this came across poorly. Your post was sadly rather harsh, as if he would have posted a crap map (and not even any posted crap map got such a harsh comment by you). I really wonder why you did something like that. Wasn`t it you, who posted...
Myth wrote:Kids, this is how you start a flamewar.
And wasn`t it at least me who commented your last maps on a fair way? Its really rare here if a map get posted without any good points. Give him a break, its maybe not a 10/10 map, but it has many great aspects.

Re: [RELEASE] DM-Perihelion

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:31 pm
by FraGnBraG
Nice Job Alex :) I've had some good fighting in your map last night and checked it out n the ued :) First impressions are always important, be it graphical or gameplay, and I think you'll have a popular map here, so all your effort was worth it, imo.

I have a few niggles (heh, mappers *always* do, lol) as peeps who look really closely at things. I should warn you though, I'm not a big fan of Kraden - I never liked that pack, imo it's badly "offscale" as a set and then doesn't scale well when you try and adjust it. So imo it is quite usable but in areas viewed from a bit of distance and not so good for up-close details (so I agree basically with Creav on the resolution points). So all this to say, you are brave (like cooloola) for basing the entire map on it and what you've done generally works :D

If it were me, I would have mixed in a few more compatible texture sets to make the theme to mix in brown/rusty/grey hues to give relief to all that yellow :) The lighting in general has appropriate hues sats and radii, but imo tad too bright in in some areas, as you have "overbright greening" in some spots (not not "hue greening"). That said, some areas and scenes are quite pleasing :) Nice to see the big vertical view - I like it when mappers pay attention to scene composition :)

Graphics/geometery, well, a few notes for next time: Yeah, in ut this always a problem with texture scale versus the size of decoration objects (i.e. meshes) and other players/npcs versus the player-point-of-view (camera frustom/height). Old story, in UT99 what looks "right" to the player PPV is actually too large for reality, making the other players you see seem like midgets, lol! To make matters worse, when you start adjusting size of rooms and doors down to more realistic dimensions (heh, look at any of AngelHeart's early maps) you end up in a snaggy unplayable situation. So unreal is really "unreal" lol! Anyways, it's all about compromize and doing what you can to suspend a viewers disbelief (for the few seconds he's got to look around before he gets hit with a rocket).

A few points I will mention about scaling (imo):
- The basic metal floor "double hatched" pattern at scale 1.0 is 4x too big. For believability it has to be scaled down to 0.25 (see pic).
- Chain link fence is also same problem - well, to me it seems too big. Trouble is the diamond type masking (or more correctly angled "lines" in ut are always jaggy and worsen when scaled down, alas, I would use a different mask (like a grid grill pattern or something other than chain-link). Common problem in ut, btw, not really a mistake, just a consequence of chain-links.
alex_peri_2.jpg
Introdude 4x vs 1.2, looking at the fence
- The rectangular light units by themselves at scale 1 H and V are shown in the pic, they are skinny, but render evenly (look at the beveled edge around the diffuser part). When you scale the H and V to fit (as you've done) the distortion is aggrivating the beveled edge in the V so the bevel looks super jaggy. The Kraden light is the problem. It doesn't scale. Me, nowadays I would spend a few minutes in Photoshop and just create a version thats "fatter" so it doesn't have to be stretched to fit properly (or find another better light texture). Anyways, that's just me nit picking :wink:
alex_peri_4.jpg
Floor and light texture scaling


Gameplay etc: Ah, the important stuff :tu: Nice big FFA map. I played it 1vs1 on adept and then masterful, and then 4player FFA (no mutators) Nick also tested it out and played some jump matches.


Here's some things noticed (all are minor points - again just imo):
The lift was not obvious. Strange sounding noise near the armor (like, wtf was that :noidea). Can see the top of the shaft outside of the udam window - it's black - dunno if you wanted it fakebackdrop. Glass floors and windows - a dirtier texture transparency would be better imo, after all it is a mine, and mines are dirty :) Ammo seemed a bit weird - they way it's mixed up at the guns. udam area is ownable, especially in FFA - I think udams and belts should be "hard-to-get" items in DM, that's my opinion, otherwise they become the dominant objective for players which is a flow-spoiler. Heh, and Nick disagrees :) Good z-axis in general and a few jousting spots but the outside areas up high are quite campable, especially if you have hitscan and that damn udam! The big ICH walls you have sealing the perimeter in the "court" shows weapon collisions, which i didn't care but Nick complained - and he managed to get over it into the non-playspace area around the buildings - somehow, he was playing with mutators though. I think would have used blocking actors there (a lot of them, stretched up really high). ICH's can mess up your bsp too (well, they are bsp :)
alex_peri_3.jpg
ICH walls
One last point was the rocket launcher location. At first I didn't like this - but then later saw it as a good placement because it really cut down on the spam, lol! Well, in FFA you really want RL and shock and they're usually in open areas to encourage traffic (and thus spamming/sniping). Where it is causes a traffic on the jumpdown route which otherwise might not see as much - same with the shock and flak - good stuff! There are a few disappearing brushes and I saw oneor two small edge-homs but generally no glitches (no disappearing floors and pillars like in hian and some of rev's maps, and good framerates everywhere in the map, so I'd say Swanky would give you a pat on the back on your build, GJ :D :rock:

Cheers

Re: [RELEASE] DM-Perihelion

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:45 pm
by --=PsyXandeR=--
Thanks for a very detailed response Frag! I will go over it again as soon as I get back to my apartment and type with an actual keyboard and not iPhone, lol.

Re: [RELEASE] DM-Perihelion

Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:09 pm
by Creavion
Overall the map seems to be a success. He got a lot of good feedback on beyondunreal.

http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=194802
http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=194786