MH-EasterInWonderland

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papercoffee
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Re: MH-EasterInWonderland

Post by papercoffee »

VatcilliZeitchef wrote:Double post! Necro bump!
I'm so sorry to tell you... neither of them.

You are over the 24 hours limit ...therefore no double post.
You added some useful information to your own thread... therefore no necro bump.

You are still a nice guy/role model ...sorry.

btt:
Good news. :mrgreen:
Maybe can you ask FragnBrag to look over your map ...he IS a bot-path guru.
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Re: MH-EasterInWonderland

Post by VatcilliZeitchef »

papercoffee wrote:
VatcilliZeitchef wrote:Double post! Necro bump!
I'm so sorry to tell you... neither of them.

You are over the 24 hours limit ...therefore no double post.
damn.
papercoffee wrote:You added some useful information to your own thread... therefore no necro bump.
Damn!
papercoffee wrote:You are still a nice guy/role model ...sorry.
DAMN!
papercoffee wrote:btt:
Good news. :mrgreen:
Maybe can you ask FragnBrag to look over your map ...he IS a bot-path guru.
That would be great, I'll PM him right away!
If possible I'd definitely want to be nice to the peeps that play with bots!
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Re: MH-EasterInWonderland

Post by EvilGrins »

VatcilliZeitchef wrote:If possible I'd definitely want to be nice to the peeps that play with bots!
Actually my bots played fine on the previous 2 versions, before the last one before this one, which seemed to confuse them a bit.
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medor wrote:Replace Skaarj with EvilGrins :mrgreen:
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Re: MH-EasterInWonderland

Post by DeathoX 8 »

Glad to see you're still around Vat, and still pumping out some nice maps! (XYZ8000 here, changed nickname some years ago :))
I finally found some time to try this out, hope it's not too late. I really liked the theme, original and nicely done!


I took some notes when playing it, some bugs that can be quickly fixed:

- You can get some fall damage if you move around after respawning. Personally I found having to wait before moving unnerving :P

- I saw a bot running back and forth between the eggs in the starting room more than once, not sure what it might be causing that.

- The doors before the "get small" room can get bots stuck, they should be IgnoreWhenEncroaching (and so should be all the other doors in any MH map, since otherwise you can get some smartasses that stay in front of them voluntarily to block the other players from progressing)

- I haven't opened the map in the editor but it seems that you're using only one destination for your teleporters, make sure to have plenty of destination spots (at least 4) to both avoid bots telefragging and, most importantly, to avoid players standing in the teleporter destination to block others from teleporting (especially important for the teleporter to the Alice room since it is mandatory!)

- It's not that easy to remember which teleporter gets where in the starting room, I would make the "current" teleporter even brighter to make sure that players get in on the first try (although it's not really a big deal since you can teleport back if you choose the wrong one)

- The "Oxygen level refilled" message leaves some empty lines in the chat box, if you're using an Inventory even if the pickup message is "" it will still produce an empty line

- The underwater caverns below the fountain is a bit plain looking compared to the rest of the level, I would add some more contrast and make the rock surfaces High Detail, some fog could also work wonders

- There's an invisible collision error on the ramp before the Jabberwocky fight, you can't get to the top of the ramp without jumping. Since there aren't many pickups in that area you could maybe add something on the ledge at the top of the ramp? (Maybe some thigh pads)
You can also exit the map from said ledge, you should place a BlockPlayers above the forest if you want to prevent players from roaming around on the top of the cliffs (could be fun with RocketXs though :P).

- When Alice kills the cow it says "a cow killed a cow"

- I would stay clear of adding the Minigun and its ammo before the door of the last room. Otherwise players could safely stay in the corridor and "freeze" the queen (make her stuck into the pain animation as long as they keep firing) and make for an easy boss fight... If you add it in the boss room itself players will have to be exposed to get the weapon/some ammo, making it less of a problem.

- The Queen killed quite some Skaarjs/"Cards" with her door projectiles, you might want to make the projectiles pass through them instead

- The Red Queen appears in the score table! Even after you finished the map. Not sure how you're handling her being a monster and not respawning, but if you're relying on her having only one life this could give a problem in variants like MHExcal where lives have been removed. You might want to spawn her right before the cutscene and then Destroy() her once she's done.



As far as gameplay goes there were a couple of things that I didn't like much, but I'm more of a "give me 200 weak monsters in a single room" guy so take these suggestions with a grain of salt since most other players might find the map perfectly fine, gameplay is subjective :). They might also take quite a while to implement so I'm not sure it's worth the hassle to rework the gameplay.

- I've never liked Creature Factories much, especially when used this extensively.
My main gripe is that if you die you basically have to get through the same part of the level doing again a fight that you already "won" by passing through, sometimes it feels like you're playing the same section three times in a row. I would especially avoid using bCovert in this way since it happens very often that you're retreating from some monster and another spawns right behind you, killing you.
In some sections covert works (like the forest) but I would definitely avoid using it in small parts like the corridor where you first encounter the Card monsters. I would rather have the monsters spawn with a teleport effect in front of me. If you want to keep the covert adding anyway some kind of sound effect on spawn could at least warn players when something has spawned right behind them.
If it would be me I'd add some more "permanent" monsters (non spawned via Creature Factory) to raise the challenge a bit (make it harder to go through a section) but make the Creature Factories spawn less monsters.

- I don't like much the quick respawning of the eggs, since being health you can basically stack up to 180 every time you get to some eggs, you just have to wait a few seconds. If it would be me I would maybe give them some more health but treat them as normal MedBoxes as far as respawn goes.

- I found the JabberWocky fight very very easy, he stood still in the lava pool so all I had to do was hit is head with the ripper and dodge a little every time he shot his projectile. Those rockets you gave him are pretty weak in comparison to the normal rocks since they don't fragment, so you just have to move 100uu and you're safe. If you want to keep him stationary like that I'd either add some support monsters or buff up his rockets (not necessarily damage, spawn some more rockets with less damage but wider spread? Otherwise you might try to make them slightly "heat seeking" so that a player has to move quite a bit to not get hit). I noticed only afterwards that you can make the rock roll :P

- The almost invisible monsters felt a bit awkward to fight, I would have very much preferred if they were very slightly transparent so that you can see their hitbox, it might be just me but especially the Kralls's collision seemed a bit off. It seems like projectiles pass right through the Krall's head without headshotting. However I'd keep them "invisible" as they are quite unique, I like the effect!

- I died twice because of those Dungeon Crawlers, I guess I was unlucky but I landed right in front of them after dropping down in the water :P. Isn't their damage a bit high for Pupaes? If it would be me I'd have more of them with less damage (plus you could add some on the walls/ceiling!)

- Just a thought, it would be nice if instead of ending automatically there would be another door/teleporter or something to end the map instead of automatic end, so that who finished the map can wait for others to finish :)


Bots weren't very useful during my playthrough, I rarely saw someone fighting with me (and one bot was stuck between the eggs in the start room), although it's probably impossible to get them working right with such a twisty layout. They were pretty lively against the bosses though.
In my latest MH map, DarkWhite, I used quite some teleporters (opened up in old areas) to make the bots reach the current fighting location, otherwise there would be no way to make them "understand" some parts of the layout. With some teleporters placed where you see them stop following the player and some patience it's possible to make them stay pretty close...


Overall a very nice fun map, it looks brilliant and it's very original. Keep up the good work!
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Re: MH-EasterInWonderland

Post by VatcilliZeitchef »

Hey! Xyz, Good to see you again, and just as I was planning to finish up packing the map and releasing a final too.

I see that a lot of your comments refer directly or indirectly to bot pathing, however if you look through the thread you'll see that the damn bastards have been giving me issues for the last four pages and I have (Repeatedly) asked for help on getting them to work. I have deleted and remade the bot paths from scratch at least four times now and I just can't get it to work correctly at all. :help:

On the monster spawning, I further reduced the number of spawns in the latest version, but I definitely did not want them to run out too soon, and there are already some permanent monsters at the start. I think after these changes the number of monsters should run out after the third run. With the exception of the queensland area since that part is supposed to be hard.

The queen will spawn only once no matter what mutator you use, so that isn't going to be an issue, thanks to the class I use (She's a bot since I want her to go around, following paths and grabbing pickups, so that she feels like a player) I have been unable to make her not show up on the scoreboard though, I am not a coder.

As for the minigun, I guess you could consider it moved.

The projectiles moving through monsters thing I honestly have no idea how to do that, same goes for making the Jabberwock projectiles heat-seeking, you're clearly over-estimating my abilities and unreal script knowledge!

That said, I honestly have no idea how to improve the Jabberwock battle, I have been trying to custom script him to be more dangerous without him moving around but I just CAN'T understand unreal script at all. There also should be monsters spawning around that area, but as you see, they aren't. It's another thing causing me lots of needless headache.

I will give re-doing the path one more try, but don't get your hopes up, every attempt I gave it so far made it worse than the last. If you know how to do it better, I will send you the latest version and you can give it a go, I have all but given up on the bastards.

I will fix the ramp and the ability for players to escape there. The invisible wall I will give ONE attempt to remove and one only, since the BSP in this map is so unstable it's very unlikely to not cause HOMs and other unwanted errors if I as much as move a sheet. I actually spent many hours just fixing it up after I already finished the BSP.

One thing I won't be changing is the eggs as I made them by personal preference, They respawn fast in the spawn area only because I want players to be able to stock up to 180 health easily there. Beyond that they are like health vials.
I just wanted to be different from the usual. I have however increased the eggs at spawn to heal 20 instead of 8 so you don't have to wait. :mrgreen:

Thanks for the feedback and I will do my best to fix as much as I can, but I have already spent way too much time on this map, (Well over a year) and I just want it gone by now. If I can fix it without too much headache and heartache I will, but otherwise I'll only get rid of errors that make the map truly unplayable. I'm sorry.

I just need a short break. :sleep:
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Re: MH-EasterInWonderland

Post by VatcilliZeitchef »

Image

Well then, Allow me to add my last post in this thread, at least until I find something I absolutely have to reply to! I'm releasing the final version of the map, Today!
I decided NOT to strip brushes since with this map, it did not reduce the filesize with a large enough amount to make it worth being a 'jerk', and I am too kind to not allow other mappers
to take a look at my terrible architecture in unreal ed.

The map can be downloaded from This link, and should be ready for whatever you want to do with it! :highfive:

Latest changes:
-Added extra teleporter destinations to HOPEFULLY avoid the problems DeathoX 8 mentioned.
-Increased the splash radius of the Jabberwocky's projectiles and made it so that engaging him alerts all monsters in the vicinity to come to his aid.
-(Hopefully) Fixed an issue with the Nali that could cause servers to crash, I haven't been able to replicate it since.
-Added a thighpads to the ramp near the Jabberwocky.
-Added a blockplayers to keep players from leaving the meadow.
-Checked the map over for problematic BSP, found a few invisible walls, sadly could not find a way to fix them but they are in places where they aren't a big deal, and can be jumped over.
-Moved the playerstarts down to reduce the time you spend in mid-air. At worst you'll take 8-12 damage now.
-Reduced the number of health eggs at the start but set their heal value to 20.
-Remade the bot network with the help of a custom actor Titled wrote for the map, then decided to give up on them. The image below is totally not a shot of the bots finishing the map on their own (Set to "Freelance" )
Image

Get the map while it's hot~ and spread the word! Uploading it to Mapraider as well
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Re: MH-EasterInWonderland

Post by EvilGrins »

As far as the last version of this map I played, and I've been keeping each version I download, my bots did good on it. Somewhere around where I'm following the White Rabbit I lose track of the bots... but they always beat me to the queen so I guess that kinda evens out.

Usually play the map with 3 bots, 1 watching my back and the other 2 helping each other.
VatcilliZeitchef wrote:I just need a short break. :sleep:
That wasn't much of a break, you double-posted the very next day!

paper's gonna get you...
DeathoX 8 wrote:When Alice kills the cow it says "a cow killed a cow"
She used to be very fat and she's sensitive about it, which I know is just udderly dreadful to still refer to her as a cow.
VatcilliZeitchef wrote:Increased the splash radius of the Jabberwocky's projectiles and made it so that engaging him alerts all monsters in the vicinity to come to his aid.
So... attacking the jabberwock will bring more monsters to come help it that will be killed by its much larger splash effect?

Makes my job simpler!
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medor wrote:Replace Skaarj with EvilGrins :mrgreen:
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Re: MH-EasterInWonderland

Post by VatcilliZeitchef »

EvilGrins wrote:As far as the last version of this map I played, and I've been keeping each version I download, my bots did good on it. Somewhere around where I'm following the White Rabbit I lose track of the bots... but they always beat me to the queen so I guess that kinda evens out.

Usually play the map with 3 bots, 1 watching my back and the other 2 helping each other.
VatcilliZeitchef wrote:I just need a short break. :sleep:
That wasn't much of a break, you double-posted the very next day!

paper's gonna get you...
It's been over 24 hours~
EvilGrins wrote:
DeathoX 8 wrote:When Alice kills the cow it says "a cow killed a cow"
She used to be very fat and she's sensitive about it, which I know is just udderly dreadful to still refer to her as a cow.
:lol2:
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Re: MH-EasterInWonderland

Post by EvilGrins »

VatcilliZeitchef wrote:It's been over 24 hours~
I usually strive for 36 hours or more, just to be safe.
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medor wrote:Replace Skaarj with EvilGrins :mrgreen:
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Re: MH-EasterInWonderland

Post by papercoffee »

EvilGrins wrote:
VatcilliZeitchef wrote:It's been over 24 hours~
I usually strive for 36 hours or more, just to be safe.
VatcilliZeitchef » Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:31 am
VatcilliZeitchef » Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:22 pm

= 35 hours and 51 minutes ...hm ...safe enough.
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Re: MH-EasterInWonderland

Post by DeathoX 8 »

Sorry Vat, I was away for work since Friday, I should have written it :/ (found out about Nairobi just now too :? )

Looks like you fixed all the important bugs, most of the other things I mentioned come down to personal preference (i.e. my everlasting hate for Creature Factories :P). The only truly important things I mentioned were the teleporters being blockable by players, all the rest is just minor nitpicking since the map is very well playable and definitely fun!

I've got myself an UT3 map that I've started in 2008 and haven't released yet since I'm not happy with it, sometimes it's better to just release it since if you keep trying to make it perfect you'll never stop working on it ;).


I'll try the latest version but from the changelog I think it will be fine :)
If bots make it to the end alone then it's waaaaaay more than enough, I think the MH maps where bots can finish unassisted are less than a dozen :P.

I thought you did have some UScripting wizardry since the map does have some unusual coding stuff, and those changes I suggested were quite simple (most monster projectiles have a check in their collision check function (can't remember what it's called right now, but if you open something like a TentacleProj you'll see something like if (Other.class == Tentacle) Return;) and the homing function can be taken from the RocketMk2 class).
I wouldn't call myself a coder but I've dabbled a bit with UnrealScript, I'm not very active nowadays but if you need some code let me know and I'll try to help :). Those suggestions I made were very minor stuff anyway so it's not worth to re-open, re-modify, and re-release your map again ;)
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Re: MH-EasterInWonderland

Post by DeathoX 8 »

I tried the new version, I like the changes! The Jabberwocky fight was much more interesting now that the other monsters take part in it (although I still don't like being killed by a monster spawned right behind me :P). Bots were also more active, I lost them only at the forest (they seem to have troubles navigating around the entrance hole) but they reconnected soon after.

Overall it's a nice and fun map! Keep up the good work :)
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Re: MH-EasterInWonderland

Post by VatcilliZeitchef »

Thank you DeathoX~ (Or should I still call you XYZ?) I'm glad that the map was more to your liking now, I was about to murder all them bots before Titled showed up with an answer!

Next time I add creature factories I'll make sure to set the ambientsounds of the spawned monster into the "Trollolol song" for the first few seconds! :lol:
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Re: MH-EasterInWonderland

Post by DeathoX 8 »

VatcilliZeitchef wrote:Thank you DeathoX~ (Or should I still call you XYZ?) I'm glad that the map was more to your liking now, I was about to murder all them bots before Titled showed up with an answer!

Next time I add creature factories I'll make sure to set the ambientsounds of the spawned monster into the "Trollolol song" for the first few seconds! :lol:
Either is fine, call me however you want! :)

Now that you've become a Creature Factory fan you should start making some Godz maps ;)
(actually didn't you work on a collaborative map that was more or less like Godz? The one that had Redeemer courses and extra monsters like Gollums? I never saw a release of it)
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Re: MH-EasterInWonderland

Post by Spectra »

I always keep forgetting to download your map. Finally Got time to play it.

Really Nice Map, Nice Environments, Keep up with your Outstanding Work.
Your other maps like MH-LostSouls is also Awesome one.
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