= The 512kb MAPPING CONTEST discussion !! =

[FraGnBraG]

ha, i just changed my vote (i did not know you can do that anyways, i switched 300k to "stuck in a video game" cause i just got some cool puzzle ideas that (i hope) can work in UT, although i don't think a trad gametype will work - it would have to be SP (with monsters) or MH ...

The other is halloween - i've had a halloween map plan for years, but never tried to make it - this would be a good opportunity, if halloween theme wins...

[Spectra]

What things are needed to make a Halloween map?? Perhaps I don't have anything about the Halloween festival. Maybe I can make some Halloween maps.

I vote for Quake Theme and Halloween style.

[Radi]

Now Halloween theme wins. . Eh I dont have needed graphics or meshes.. So I vote for 'Micro maps'

[GenMoKai]

Well... i want to try something new with halloween I also wanted to vote for underwater themed, but that is a bit unfair because i have a map wich is nearly finished but never released. So halloween and stuck inside a different video game for me

[Carbon]

We could always move away from any constraints and simply tighten up the judging. I think most of us are not too easily fooled with simply good graphics and trusting that whoever our judges turn out to be will be looking for game play above all...? We have quite a divergence of opinions with mappers, so why not let them do their own thing? We could put together a kind of judges rubric to assist in objectivity.

[papercoffee]

@Carbon
But competitions are always somehow with restrictions...
Think about a sport competition where everyone is doing his own sport he likes ...how would you compare hockey with hurdling or high diving?
The theme is important to give all participants the same sport and the same starting line.

[GenMoKai]

Well... the Xmas contests also had some rules. If the theme is set? Are there going to be rules as well?

[papercoffee]

Well... the Xmas contests also had some rules. If the theme is set? Are there going to be rules as well?

What do you think?

Edit-------------
http://www.ut99.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5355 the 48 hours speed mapping contest had also rules ... but now is the restriction the theme.

[TheDane]

There needs to be rules, but honestly I think the theme (sport?) is not important? The focus should be on delivering a map package that brings new usable maps to the game, why else create a new map? There are literally thousands of crap maps out there in every theme you can think of. Don't limit the mapper on a theme? Limit the mapper on rules like max external packages? max file size? max poly count? max whatever else. But honestly ... Halloween theme? come on ..... I don't want to create a map that if it ever gets played the theme will limit it to that season only?

About judging the maps... I remember taking part in a contest at WGF where the mappers themselves decided the Winner. Rules for judging was simple - only the mappers could vote, and they couldn't vote for their own map. Each mapper got 3 votes, 3 point vote for the best map, 2 points for the 2. best map and 1 point for the 3rd best map of their choice.

The mappers knows the quality of a map - the players will favor the maps made for the specific gameplay they prefer - not fair towards the mappers efforts. So I say - set the rules and let the participating mappers decide with their opinion based upon the rules. Ofcause this would put FNB on top of the potential winner list (IMHO) - but that's just fair and would make it clear to the participating mappers what they need to "beat" in order to win.

[papercoffee]

There needs to be rules, but honestly I think the theme (sport?) is not important? The focus should be on delivering a map package that brings new usable maps to the game, why else create a new map? There are literally thousands of crap maps out there in every theme you can think of. Don't limit the mapper on a theme? Limit the mapper on rules like max external packages? max file size? max poly count? max whatever else. But honestly ... Halloween theme? come on ..... I don't want to create a map that if it ever gets played the theme will limit it to that season only?

About judging the maps... I remember taking part in a contest at WGF where the mappers themselves decided the Winner. Rules for judging was simple - only the mappers could vote, and they couldn't vote for their own map. Each mapper got 3 votes, 3 point vote for the best map, 2 points for the 2. best map and 1 point for the 3rd best map of their choice.

The mappers knows the quality of a map - the players will favor the maps made for the specific gameplay they prefer - not fair towards the mappers efforts. So I say - set the rules and let the participating mappers decide with their opinion based upon the rules. Ofcause this would put FNB on top of the potential winner list (IMHO) - but that's just fair and would make it clear to the participating mappers what they need to "beat" in order to win.

So ...you say, no restriction through a theme but through limits in use of resources?
That would be fitting for the 300k restriction... somehow.

What do the other posters think about this suggestion?

[Radi]

TheDane have a good point, why restrict to specific holiday theme?. Halloween, Xmas . . It so boring. Every year and it the same or similar.. Theme should be choosen more carefully, should be more universal, something unique/new, not like american holiday (I hate american holidays taking place as our own. . . ). So there no rules ? Only theme ? No limits ? No specific pre-made map center or so? So people can use their near finished map? Blah....

[Dr.Flay]

Hmm, when playing with venn diagrams, you can fit anything inside anything.
Actually whichever you choose as a start point you can shoe-horn another in
Anything is possible

I do like the idea of the 300k limit, but then I am old enough to remember the demo scene gatherings, when people used to show-off at their latest amazing eye and ear-candy, all squeezed into the boot-block of a floppy disc.
I am used to demo competitions involving a 64k limit, and understand the point of doing such things.
Small limits tend to "sort the wheat from the chaff" and you learn from it, but it may put-off some people not as careful/skilled.

An optimising tip I never see anyone bother with, since we have more RAM and new renderers.
UE1 will use a shared palette across images in a texture group.
If you have lots of textures with the same colours, it is more optimal to put them in the same group.
If you have software that will accurately remap a palette, you can make all the textures in a group use the same shared palette, ready for import.
If you don't have software that is handy for palette remapping, then you can join all your textures together in 1 large contact-sheet.
Next reduce to 8-bit and save it, then cut all your textures from the contact-sheet.
They will now all have the same palette giving you more space for something else.

[papercoffee]

An optimising tip I never see anyone bother with, since we have more RAM and new renderers.
UE1 will use a shared palette across images in a texture group.
If you have lots of textures with the same colours, it is more optimal to put them in the same group.
If you have software that will accurately remap a palette, you can make all the textures in a group use the same shared palette, ready for import.
If you don't have software that is handy for palette remapping, then you can join all your textures together in 1 large contact-sheet.
Next reduce to 8-bit and save it, then cut all your textures from the contact-sheet.
They will now all have the same palette giving you more space for something else.

I slightly grasp what you mean but I'm not entirely sure ...can you elaborate?

[TheDane]

An optimising tip I never see anyone bother with, since we have more RAM and new renderers.
UE1 will use a shared palette across images in a texture group.
If you have lots of textures with the same colours, it is more optimal to put them in the same group.
If you have software that will accurately remap a palette, you can make all the textures in a group use the same shared palette, ready for import.
If you don't have software that is handy for palette remapping, then you can join all your textures together in 1 large contact-sheet.
Next reduce to 8-bit and save it, then cut all your textures from the contact-sheet.
They will now all have the same palette giving you more space for something else.

I slightly grasp what you mean but I'm not entirely sure ...can you elaborate?

I get it (I think), though I never knew this it makes comlpetely sense! Thanks for sharing that info here Flay! However, if the limit is set to 300k it will be very limited custom textures that can be used - if any....... But should the limit be doubled to 600k this is valueable information indeed!!

What Flay say is that if you import a say 256x256 .bmp image (65k) into UE1 the first image will have the same size, but if you import a second image using the same color palette, then the palette info does not need to be included in the texture itself, but gets stored in the group info? Pretty neat indeed as you can then decrease package sizes in texture packages .... image you have an animation made by 32 textures in 512x512, that should realy make this info become usefull

[FraGnBraG]

There needs to be rules, but honestly I think the theme (sport?) is not important? The focus should be on delivering a map package that brings new usable maps to the game, why else create a new map? There are literally thousands of crap maps out there in every theme you can think of. Don't limit the mapper on a theme? Limit the mapper on rules like max external packages? max file size? max poly count? max whatever else. But honestly ... Halloween theme? come on ..... I don't want to create a map that if it ever gets played the theme will limit it to that season only?

About judging the maps... I remember taking part in a contest at WGF where the mappers themselves decided the Winner. Rules for judging was simple - only the mappers could vote, and they couldn't vote for their own map. Each mapper got 3 votes, 3 point vote for the best map, 2 points for the 2. best map and 1 point for the 3rd best map of their choice.

The mappers knows the quality of a map - the players will favor the maps made for the specific gameplay they prefer - not fair towards the mappers efforts. So I say - set the rules and let the participating mappers decide with their opinion based upon the rules. Ofcause this would put FNB on top of the potential winner list (IMHO) - but that's just fair and would make it clear to the participating mappers what they need to "beat" in order to win.

actually, you know my thinking is falling right line with TheDane here... Especially these days we would really want to achieve maps that will be played online and hopefully all year-round, right? So Dane's right in that seasonal" themes might not be so good (playing a christmas map in summer doesn't seem right, does it?)

300K is actually quite a demanding rule, but other than the rule of standard gametypes anything goes... admittedly, 300K is a UP "Blito" thing, so maybe we could start our own "tradition", perhaps 600K and any theme, standard gametypes and weapons, maybe allow MH and BT. Now I know what mappers can do in 300K, some guys can do a LOT, so given 600K, you could do a lot more (like, trim everything and use lots more movers and coronas, etc.) and the map is still going to be a really small filesize and thus a smaller BSP and light maps, thus on-line should always work no probs admin friendly... I think that 600k size lets detail freaks make a smallish detailed map, or a rocket guy make a huge but simpler map (and then everything in between) so discipline and good decisions will be needed to win the contest...

note, i think combining something like halloween and inside another video game is not a good idea - just do one or the other...

Anyways, there's a few thoughts

oh, and regarding me winning contests, lol, i pretty much never win those contests - especially 300k ones!

Cheers