Looking for a good pathing tutorial

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Red_Fist
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Re: Looking for a good pathing tutorial

Post by Red_Fist » Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:02 pm

With no code, the main thing is the bots want pickups (set MaxDesireablity to lead them around), use blocked paths (for MH or SP) and use lift exit center,exit tagss for forced paths.

To make them walk across a mover up high above the ground, build a temp add brush below so the pathnodes can be placed, on last build, delete the brush, and don't rebuild paths.

and watch the bots in spectator with one bot, you will find the snags, takes time.
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Re: Looking for a good pathing tutorial

Post by sektor2111 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:25 pm

Red_Fist wrote:the main thing is the bots want pickups (set MaxDesireablity to lead them around)
This is a bad move too. And let me speak a bit about default Armors and 1on1 DM.

When armors spawn in a pretty big Level Bot will get busy with them "forgetting" to hunt player (as supposed at a moment). So if an admin will get mad, will fix stuff doing replacements and calibrating this kind of wickness for screwing desireability. By example in MH (cuz you mentioned) I have Scuba and main armors with a lot of desireability for them - if Bot is not loaded already with one of them. If a Bot has a Scuba or whatever armor desireability is negative - No need them - the priority is MonsterWayPoint and if exist an enemy monster, priority is changed at monster. This importance in tweaking desireability is mainly irelevant due to replacements used in old style (yet in more places) which is copying the monstly NOTHING from old item, yeah the mostly nothing.
I'm expecting to see people understanding how goes pathing - placement of Nav-points - a bad geometry also leads in 0 travel best example is CM4 in start area, even you have desireability 100 they won't ever move if PATHS are sh!t and/or geometry sucks in a solids-soup. Desireability is -100 if paths are broken or overrides 1000 Paths for some point or map is really bad.

Just a thing to live with it: 2 PathNodes supposed linked in Blue (or even red) are navigable to each-other when Pawn moving from first using current locomotion method is able to reach at that second one without to encounter heavy obstructions - this might be a tricky problem at exiting from water. There are exceptions based on "SpecialHandling" directives - LIFTS (or doors as they are dumb configured in many cases), ImpactJumping, ect.

Edit: To not forget topic purpose and then let me answer related to a good pathing tutorial. One of best moves is learning those 2 commands RememberSpot and ShowPath. They are a real training program in learning Pathing Chapter which is easy after all so to speak.
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Re: Looking for a good pathing tutorial

Post by Red_Fist » Thu Dec 17, 2015 1:03 am

I am redoing a DM map for MH right now. Using blocked paths only and the bots seemed to make it to the end pretty damn good.

So having enemies for them to go after once the door blocked path is open, I didn't use any waypoints. So for non DM or maps with pawns can work only if the enemy is like a goal but the bots have to see or interact with them to get the ball rolling.

As for max desirability, yes you do or should tweek them. one little change on one pickup should be looked at as a whole total map-wide flow.
If you raise one to much it screws up the flow, so you try to gradually increase or decrease the amount, it's tricky biz.

I never thought about admins messing it all up, so long as the map works right offline is all I am concerned with. (MH-SP)

Pathing in DM I use the max desireability so the bots are evenly spread out across the map in time so there is no place you can hide as they cycle through.
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Re: Looking for a good pathing tutorial

Post by sektor2111 » Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:55 am

Red_Fist wrote: I never thought about admins messing it all up,
Bad for you then. It's called fixing and it helps against turds getting all armors (even KevlarSuits) letting others wick in front of danger. Like I said, desireability it's only your game - ON-LINE is different than OFF-LINE. What you say can be tweaked by Path blockers and custom navigation because MyLevel it's not only for new pixels or colors.

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Re: Looking for a good pathing tutorial

Post by Red_Fist » Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:51 pm

Yes but, don't placed items keep their settings for DM, or does botpack takeover.
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Re: Looking for a good pathing tutorial

Post by EvilGrins » Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:19 pm

As I can't read German, I goto there...
Image
...and then click on spots where I want each node to be, and that makes the apples... yes?

How far apart can they be? I know items like weapons & health are already counted as path nodes, but what's the max distance for the apples from each other?
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Re: Looking for a good pathing tutorial

Post by Barbie » Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:41 am

How far apart can they [PathNodes] be?
I usually try that out by "UnrealEd|Build|Rebuild AI Paths". If the apples get connected by a blue line, bots should be able to navigate.

EDIT: you have to activate displaying paths:
ShowPaths.jpg
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sektor2111
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Re: Looking for a good pathing tutorial

Post by sektor2111 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:30 am

Barbie wrote:I usually try that out by "UnrealEd|Build|Rebuild AI Paths". If the apples get connected by a blue line, bots should be able to navigate.
This is not the answer.
EvilGrins wrote:How far apart can they be? I know items like weapons & health are already counted as path nodes, but what's the max distance for the apples from each other?
As far as possible if they have direct sight to each-other but I don't recommend too much over 680-700 UU. The question is: How can we figure these distances easily ?
In order to have an idea about a good distance you might wanna try a simple trick: Pick an actor (trigger or keypoint) and change default-properties - collisionradius = 350. Now go to window bar and check Actors - > Radii View. You will figure a cylinder of collision if bCollideActors=True for this thing modified - and DON'T save any package. Put one in some Navigable area.
[attachment=0]figure_UU.PNG[/attachment]
In this way you might figure scales in that Level. In small places they have to be closer. You might use as reference cylinder's boundaries.
Any geometry obstruction won't link them except LiftExit and LiftCenter types + Teleporters as well.

In simple Levels with a good geometry "tunnels" like, Editor can do links even over 700 UU and are perfectly usable. I didn't checked such a max distance as long as in other Levels Navigation can be lottery, I could see lines linked well in Editor but nothing was working in game - tested directly with fore mentioned commands.

Using brush editor you can do a cylinder or cube (without adding any brush) but having 700 Size X,Y then move that null cube how you want for figuring distances.
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Re: Looking for a good pathing tutorial

Post by EvilGrins » Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:31 am

Okay, took my first look at paths today after setting up just about 5 apples between 2 rooms... and saw this:
Image
Keeping in mind, I've never looked at paths before, but this seems like a bit much.

More than that, none of the apples I put down have paths between them.

How do I connect the apples?
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Re: Looking for a good pathing tutorial

Post by JackGriffin » Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:04 am

You have to remember that pickups create nodes too everywhere they are placed. Well, technically they create inventory spots but that's a more technical discussion for another day. Anyway if you have a handful of pickups close to each other then they will build a network web between all of them. This can appear really involved when looking at paths but don't worry about it too much. Just try not to put a ton of pickups piled up in the end of a room when you can avoid it. The bots navigate best when there is a general flow of "pathnode>pathnode>pickup>pathnode>pathnode" but this isn't always real world feasible.

Good pathing requires patience and a ton of rebuilding paths to tweak it right. And as Nels mentioned you will still need to test play with a bunch of bots and watch them to see if you created bottlenecks or if they can't navigate something. Blue lines doesn't always mean success, the only sure way is to watch.

Oh, and EG if your nodes didn't path then
A) You placed them too far away from the existing network, essentially creating an island.
B) You didn't build all. If you did then save the map and reopen editor. It can do some wonky stuff at times, it's good to regularly reopen the editor.
So long, and thanks for all the fish

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Re: Looking for a good pathing tutorial

Post by sektor2111 » Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:41 pm

As I can see here if that would be my Level I wouldn't mock like that. Those "health" types can be only 2 or even a single item with RespawnTime 3-4 seconds not a crap-ton of paths generated. Usually such a mess is done by low skilled people, some of them never hosted servers and never used Bots but complaining a lot against them.
There are several rules:
- adding new Inventory or node doesn't need always a path rebuild (if things aren't considered ready yet);
- REMOVING any Node-Type must be done with REBUILD paths immediately or else Navigation Network gets broken and a path seeker (any) will crash game instantly (there are such dumb stupid Levels in MH). Usually I'm not asking permissions to fix them because I consider them done in purpose to crash servers so I don't deal with such people. Such a Level can be discovered instantly by player only, even in an empty cube with fore-mentioned default testing commands. If Epic did something good, for sure RememberSpot and ShowPath are showing the way as it is: good or bad. You can crash MH-Egyptica, MH-Golgotha_ALfix (if I well recall name - is fixed an a$$), and some sh!t Levels beyond 2014 by some new kind of self-presumed mappers.
Answer is > this is not for Bot, but even a pupae can crash Server because is PAWN.
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Re: Looking for a good pathing tutorial

Post by EvilGrins » Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:44 pm

I'm aware usual pickup items count as pathing, which is why I started apples at corner of room figuring other items would lead to them.
JackGriffin wrote:You didn't build all.
That I didn't know. Heard more than a few times there's something that builds its own paths and what was bad, as it makes too many. Thought "build all" might be that.

Turns out monster spawnpoints also create paths. Argh!
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Re: Looking for a good pathing tutorial

Post by papercoffee » Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:05 pm

EvilGrins wrote: That I didn't know. Heard more than a few times there's something that builds its own paths and what was bad, as it makes too many. Thought "build all" might be that.
You ... how .... wtf Image

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Re: Looking for a good pathing tutorial

Post by sektor2111 » Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:44 pm

All right, time to describe tiny sequences:
See this console:
Editor_sConsole1.png
Here you can destroy all current paths with command: Paths Undefine
Now safely remove excessive items and move those which needs moved, add Nodes, do not add SpawnPoints yet.
You can select any light and RightClick Orderto Last/First how you like. Feel free to save Level, Exit Editor, Reload Editor, Reload Level,
Using that console you can Input command Paths Define.

YOU DON'T NEED to REBUILD ALL, even Level's geometry - might break map badly if mapper was jerky. Stop building geometry if is not rammed.

After checking paths added if were created you might add Spawpoints and DON'T touch pathing commands again. Simply Let SpawnPoints higher UNLINKED.

Alternate Console is in menu here:
2nd_Console.png
In this one you can see if some errors are taking place (something went wrong). It is advisable to not see "Scout didn't fit" message - previous commands works here in the same way + activity log. This one shows an item bad located where InventorySpot assigned might mess bugging A.I., simply repeat path removal, moving item, pathing again. SpawnPoints bugging stuff are the latest things if map is loaded and might lead to Network boundary "1000 Paths searched from ... whatever point" - leads in no path found in that moment - NONE returned.

By rebuilding without re-wrapping procedures you might have thousands of trash ReachSpecs + InventorySpot11456. Map increases size useless with garbage stuff from previous section and I cannot be sure if engine doesn't process paths more intensive.

I might give you another example where I did paths over a giant mover and any rebuild will mess paths because I worked harder to solve that problem. That's other debate chapter - first, basics are good for understanding.
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Re: Looking for a good pathing tutorial

Post by JackGriffin » Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:57 pm

sektor2111 wrote: YOU DON'T NEED to REBUILD ALL, even Level's geometry - might break map badly if mapper was jerky
Not sure I could disagree more. What you are describing to him is a bunch of ways of cheating the map to make it 'perfect'. What happens when you need to do something that requires a rebuild, or someone wants to extend your map?

I understand that you love to tinker, and God knows you've found some neat things but it's not a total solution. If a map gets trashed from simply buildall then it needs to be fixed, not patched around. Even worse, cheating this pathing network like you were talking about is not a road for normal people. You can do it, I could probably figure out how if I spent the time, but the average mapper doesn't need to do this.
So long, and thanks for all the fish