Steele Dawn

Maps, mods and resources ported from or to Unreal.
Must run in UT99 or with Oldskool Amp'd.
Unreal 227 only projects are "Off-Topic"
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OjitroC
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Re: Steele Dawn

Post by OjitroC » Wed Jun 08, 2022 2:17 pm

Leo(T.C.K.) wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 8:00 am
Some of the voice lines I frankly hate, although I do enjoy the hammyness of some lines especially on maps like the second one. But few lines here and there are really too much, like the one at the stronghold when all those skaarjs get triggered and come at you from their hiding spots.
Yes, this points to an issue with the voice lines, at least from my point of view. As the Player, we are the Protagonist, Brandon - however, if we don't talk or think like he does, as evidenced by what he says, then it becomes somewhat difficult to identify with him - I certainly find it hard to (I'm not given to talking about shoving stuff up anuses or even thinking about that for example). Perhaps we don't need to identify with him but merely play as our own character, blanking out to a large extent what he says? Of course, doing that leads to distance rather than engagement.

The other issue related to that is the choice of things that he comments on and again this is germane to the extent to which one can become absorbed in the story. I find it odd that he comments on each item he acquires in the hotel/hostel (which does suggest he is familiar with the weapons and not just 'some guy') but not on having to blast his way of of the room nor on why precisely he takes the route he does to get to where he is going (though we don't really know where he IS going or equally important WHY). So he takes a very circuitous route to the end of Vegra but doesn't comment on why the route is so circuitous and, in places, so hazardous nor on how/why he seems very familiar with it; nor on the pupae; nor on the bomb(?) that fortuitously opens up an underground route; nor on the Skaarj ambush - though he does comment on rats (which, from the player's point of view, are the least threatening thing he has come across - of course the player has the advantage of knowing that they are decorations and so incapable of causing damage even if they wished to :P).

I say this not to be critical but to suggest that possibly the story needs more explanation in order to improve engagement and enhance the overall experience.

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Re: Steele Dawn

Post by Leo(T.C.K.) » Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:11 pm

OjitroC wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 2:17 pm
Leo(T.C.K.) wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 8:00 am
Some of the voice lines I frankly hate, although I do enjoy the hammyness of some lines especially on maps like the second one. But few lines here and there are really too much, like the one at the stronghold when all those skaarjs get triggered and come at you from their hiding spots.
Yes, this points to an issue with the voice lines, at least from my point of view. As the Player, we are the Protagonist, Brandon - however, if we don't talk or think like he does, as evidenced by what he says, then it becomes somewhat difficult to identify with him - I certainly find it hard to (I'm not given to talking about shoving stuff up anuses or even thinking about that for example). Perhaps we don't need to identify with him but merely play as our own character, blanking out to a large extent what he says? Of course, doing that leads to distance rather than engagement.

The other issue related to that is the choice of things that he comments on and again this is germane to the extent to which one can become absorbed in the story. I find it odd that he comments on each item he acquires in the hotel/hostel (which does suggest he is familiar with the weapons and not just 'some guy') but not on having to blast his way of of the room nor on why precisely he takes the route he does to get to where he is going (though we don't really know where he IS going or equally important WHY). So he takes a very circuitous route to the end of Vegra but doesn't comment on why the route is so circuitous and, in places, so hazardous nor on how/why he seems very familiar with it; nor on the pupae; nor on the bomb(?) that fortuitously opens up an underground route; nor on the Skaarj ambush - though he does comment on rats (which, from the player's point of view, are the least threatening thing he has come across - of course the player has the advantage of knowing that they are decorations and so incapable of causing damage even if they wished to :P).

I say this not to be critical but to suggest that possibly the story needs more explanation in order to improve engagement and enhance the overall experience.
Some people, including 3 and me somewhat, find this to be basically like ONP 2.0 when it comes to voice lines. Also being criticized is the fact that the manual presents itself seriously while this is sometimes contrary to it. Unlike some other projects, we didn't get that much taste of brandon's personality from the original material and there wasn't anything to suggest (quite frankly strangely unlike upsx) that there would be voice acting.

When it comes to unreal psx there were lines recorded for jack(that we couldn't use due to the fact it was unknown voice actor and none of the other character lines/voices were recovered, only fully of jack and partially in text for other chars), but I prefered to make it text based and sometimes I made the text more serious than it was. I would have done the same for this project although everything had to be thought up. I don't think brandon's lines would have been like this had steele dawn been released. The purpose of the original project was unfortunately to force brandon's skin on the player, however I don't think the lines would have went this way at all. Its like doing the opposite here for what I did for upsx...
Even though from the voice lines and music recovered for say, Stone Killer, that was different, but it still isn't as..bad as this can get sometimes. Some people hate the lines for the mansion fight but i actually enjoyed them in the same way I enjoyed Pariah, like the fight with Stockton. The lines are so hammy that they are so good.
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Re: Steele Dawn

Post by Acoma » Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:53 pm

yeah when i first started playing sd i kept thinking about what davidm said about operation na pali being too lighthearted but after playing the expansion longer i stopped trying to think of it as an unreal expansion and more of a standalone game like deus ex or serious sam. based on brandon's existing lines i started to imagine him sounding more like the postal dude and everything made more sense. considering the lack of information and how small the levels were i think you all did a fantastic job!

just when you think you have seen it all the 227 guys pull another trick out of their hat with some cool stuff

also i was too dumb to figure out what to do at a couple of parts so please dont kill me for skipping them

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Re: Steele Dawn

Post by Leo(T.C.K.) » Wed Jun 08, 2022 6:51 pm

Acoma wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:53 pm
yeah when i first started playing sd i kept thinking about what davidm said about operation na pali being too lighthearted but after playing the expansion longer i stopped trying to think of it as an unreal expansion and more of a standalone game like deus ex or serious sam. based on brandon's existing lines i started to imagine him sounding more like the postal dude and everything made more sense. considering the lack of information and how small the levels were i think you all did a fantastic job!

just when you think you have seen it all the 227 guys pull another trick out of their hat with some cool stuff

also i was too dumb to figure out what to do at a couple of parts so please dont kill me for skipping them
What parts? I can give you hints...

Either way, yea..

onp was originally developed as being more serious too come to think of it.
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Re: Steele Dawn

Post by Delacroix » Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:09 pm

Leo(T.C.K.) wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:11 pm
Yes, this points to an issue with the voice lines, at least from my point of view. As the Player, we are the Protagonist, Brandon - however, if we don't talk or think like he does, as evidenced by what he says, then it becomes somewhat difficult to identify with him - I certainly find it hard to (I'm not given to talking about shoving stuff up anuses or even thinking about that for example). Perhaps we don't need to identify with him
No, you're meant to get him from point A to point B, not identify with him any more than you'd identify with Mr-Asian-Stereotype Lo Wang or with a complete and utter psychopaths like Caleb from Blood or the already mentioned Postal Dude.
Leo(T.C.K.) wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:11 pm
The other issue related to that is the choice of things that he comments on and again this is germane to the extent to which one can become absorbed in the story. I find it odd that he comments on each item he acquires in the hotel/hostel (which does suggest he is familiar with the weapons and not just 'some guy') but not on having to blast his way of of the room nor on why precisely he takes the route he does to get to where he is going (though we don't really know where he IS going or equally important WHY).
He IS explaining through his lines where he's going and why, just not at the moments you expect apparently. He is mentioning his overall objective briefly at the start of Old Township for instance, then in a lengthier conversation in River Ruins it's basically set in stone that he's fighting back and same in the conversation at the beginning of Mountain Stronghold (in the Nali house), and so on.
Leo(T.C.K.) wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:11 pm
So he takes a very circuitous route to the end of Vegra but doesn't comment on why the route is so circuitous and, in places, so hazardous nor on how/why he seems very familiar with it; nor on the pupae; nor on the bomb(?) that fortuitously opens up an underground route; nor on the Skaarj ambush - though he does comment on rats (which, from the player's point of view, are the least threatening thing he has come across - of course the player has the advantage of knowing that they are decorations and so incapable of causing damage even if they wished to :P).
All right - there should be more lines, I get it. Will take that feedback into account for further projects to improve upon my writing.
Leo(T.C.K.) wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:11 pm
Unlike some other projects, we didn't get that much taste of brandon's personality from the original material and there wasn't anything to suggest (quite frankly strangely unlike upsx) that there would be voice acting.
Explained in the manual, specifically in the commentary. But to keep it brief: since Level Infinity previously developed add-ons for build engine games which all feature smart-ass wise-cracking protagonists, I decided to make Brandon one to pay homage to Level Infinity's body of work as a whole. I thought it'd make sense. Clearly it doesn't.
Leo(T.C.K.) wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:11 pm
The purpose of the original project was unfortunately to force brandon's skin on the player, however I don't think the lines would have went this way at all. Its like doing the opposite here for what I did for upsx...
I confirm this. While there's no evidence Brandon would have anything to say at all, for all we know he could've ended up being Unreal's Gordon Freeman, acknowledged by all but not speaking a word himself. However... see above.
Leo(T.C.K.) wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:11 pm
Some people hate the lines for the mansion fight but i actually enjoyed them in the same way I enjoyed Pariah, like the fight with Stockton. The lines are so hammy that they are so good.
Some people, what people? If they have something to say, I'd like to hear this from them rather than being relayed and I'm left wondering, if it's just a person or two, or a whole group of people? Do they at least try to act like they have a reason or is it just hating for the sake of hating?

And... thanks. I actually DID want to go full ham. Kinda like Far Cry 3 Blood Dragon did, with its protagonist and story being the homage to and parody of old VHS-era action and sci-fi movies. I know I can't possibly ever compare to the genius that is Michael Biehn, but I damn well tried.

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Re: Steele Dawn

Post by OjitroC » Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:40 pm

Delacroix wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:09 pm
No, you're meant to get him from point A to point B, not identify with him any more than you'd identify with Mr-Asian-Stereotype Lo Wang or with a complete and utter psychopaths like Caleb from Blood or the already mentioned Postal Dude.

...But to keep it brief: since Level Infinity previously developed add-ons for build engine games which all feature smart-ass wise-cracking protagonists, I decided to make Brandon one to pay homage to Level Infinity's body of work as a whole. I thought it'd make sense. Clearly it doesn't.

...I actually DID want to go full ham. Kinda like Far Cry 3 Blood Dragon did, with its protagonist and story being the homage to and parody of old VHS-era action and sci-fi movies. I know I can't possibly ever compare to the genius that is Michael Biehn, but I damn well tried.
I get it now after that explanation - given all that, I think that you've achieved what you set out to do. I've been taking it rather too seriously.

My knowledge of other games is very limited as is my knowledge of the protagonists you mention (I only know them through their voices used in VPs for UT) - so any implied references or, indeed, homage to them in SD goes over my head.

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Re: Steele Dawn

Post by Leo(T.C.K.) » Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:08 pm

Delacroix wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:09 pm
Leo(T.C.K.) wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:11 pm
Yes, this points to an issue with the voice lines, at least from my point of view. As the Player, we are the Protagonist, Brandon - however, if we don't talk or think like he does, as evidenced by what he says, then it becomes somewhat difficult to identify with him - I certainly find it hard to (I'm not given to talking about shoving stuff up anuses or even thinking about that for example). Perhaps we don't need to identify with him
No, you're meant to get him from point A to point B, not identify with him any more than you'd identify with Mr-Asian-Stereotype Lo Wang or with a complete and utter psychopaths like Caleb from Blood or the already mentioned Postal Dude.
Leo(T.C.K.) wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:11 pm
The other issue related to that is the choice of things that he comments on and again this is germane to the extent to which one can become absorbed in the story. I find it odd that he comments on each item he acquires in the hotel/hostel (which does suggest he is familiar with the weapons and not just 'some guy') but not on having to blast his way of of the room nor on why precisely he takes the route he does to get to where he is going (though we don't really know where he IS going or equally important WHY).
He IS explaining through his lines where he's going and why, just not at the moments you expect apparently. He is mentioning his overall objective briefly at the start of Old Township for instance, then in a lengthier conversation in River Ruins it's basically set in stone that he's fighting back and same in the conversation at the beginning of Mountain Stronghold (in the Nali house), and so on.
Leo(T.C.K.) wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:11 pm
So he takes a very circuitous route to the end of Vegra but doesn't comment on why the route is so circuitous and, in places, so hazardous nor on how/why he seems very familiar with it; nor on the pupae; nor on the bomb(?) that fortuitously opens up an underground route; nor on the Skaarj ambush - though he does comment on rats (which, from the player's point of view, are the least threatening thing he has come across - of course the player has the advantage of knowing that they are decorations and so incapable of causing damage even if they wished to :P).
All right - there should be more lines, I get it. Will take that feedback into account for further projects to improve upon my writing.
Leo(T.C.K.) wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:11 pm
Unlike some other projects, we didn't get that much taste of brandon's personality from the original material and there wasn't anything to suggest (quite frankly strangely unlike upsx) that there would be voice acting.
Explained in the manual, specifically in the commentary. But to keep it brief: since Level Infinity previously developed add-ons for build engine games which all feature smart-ass wise-cracking protagonists, I decided to make Brandon one to pay homage to Level Infinity's body of work as a whole. I thought it'd make sense. Clearly it doesn't.
Leo(T.C.K.) wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:11 pm
The purpose of the original project was unfortunately to force brandon's skin on the player, however I don't think the lines would have went this way at all. Its like doing the opposite here for what I did for upsx...
I confirm this. While there's no evidence Brandon would have anything to say at all, for all we know he could've ended up being Unreal's Gordon Freeman, acknowledged by all but not speaking a word himself. However... see above.
Leo(T.C.K.) wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:11 pm
Some people hate the lines for the mansion fight but i actually enjoyed them in the same way I enjoyed Pariah, like the fight with Stockton. The lines are so hammy that they are so good.
Some people, what people? If they have something to say, I'd like to hear this from them rather than being relayed and I'm left wondering, if it's just a person or two, or a whole group of people? Do they at least try to act like they have a reason or is it just hating for the sake of hating?

And... thanks. I actually DID want to go full ham. Kinda like Far Cry 3 Blood Dragon did, with its protagonist and story being the homage to and parody of old VHS-era action and sci-fi movies. I know I can't possibly ever compare to the genius that is Michael Biehn, but I damn well tried.
You misquoted me, the first three quotes are not from me.

To adress the other people opinions. I am not going to reveal who they were, but its people i talk to regularly. And yes well one of the reasons was that it was so sudden to have skaarj talking, if they ignore stuff like unreal championship 2 etc. But I did explain that for example in the novels they speak (like karrikta) to humans using Vrenic, a standardized language which in the novel is then translated into english for reader's sake...so it could be this too or any inbetween explanation. Its also implied that (and i tried to suggest this more heavily in unreal psx) that the language we see the mercs and other people use is in fact vrenic and it'd make most sense for the mercenaries to adopt that as their own primary language while skaarj have also their own alongside vrenic. This helps explain a lot of "why does this have the mercenary text" questions etc.

But still, the combination of that and the cheesyness/hammyness is the factor why they disliked it. I myself found few lines cringeyworthy and as someone else pointed out, it gets worse on replay, this is why 3 has had the onp voice also disabled for his servers. First time hearing it is not bad but if you keep playing it on coop...it might get annoying.

Btw since I mentioned Karrikta, I know that the skin you used for this character was originally intended as that, I guess for the Na Pali episodes or something else? I remember that MasterUnreal once wanted to make a project based on the novels though.

Automatically merged

I get it about Level Infinity, after all, a "sister team" of sorts(Inferno Interactive) who did the Last Warrior addon for Shadow Warrior (with the original ms dos version being seemingly lost now, only the original MAC version existing without the exes/replacement names for levels and the repack for sourceport), made an addon for Unreal called Stone Killer.

And despite the pack not being released (there was plan to move it to UT) they did release the voice pack and I had the music released via the musician himself. That's all he had left though. But yea that was hammy too. In fact the character could have been even called Confused Travolta for all I care, he was called Johnny Langdoe but it was obviously Pulp Fiction inspired and he dressed like Travolta's character did. This was not an inspiration for my parody story though, because I only discovered or re-discovered this pack's existence after. But I might have stored it subconciously from the time ages ago plus there being a fake travolta skin (with dante's face) in one of the skin packs for Unreal. The site for stone killer even revealed this was a new model though seemingly taking parts from male3. After all there's that whole "look around" animation lol. But yea they had a new player model based on travolta's apperance partially. I can't make that shit up.

Automatically merged

I meant to say actually that I discovered during writing those...hence "Silly Dawn" featuring reference to "Stone Cold Killer" in the cinema when Confused Travolta and Marilyn Brandon go visit together the cinema in the city.

But yea...I wrote "Silly Dawn" mostly based on recovered material, not having the full community edition experience at all prior, especially not the voice acting lol...

turns out my parody stuff sometimes was closer to it than i would have thought.

Inb4 Confused Travolta becomes canon and someone makes Unreal versions of those stories...using bits and pieces of everything.

Automatically merged

Oh yea I should have mentioned that the guy who made models for steele dawn (weapons, pirates), not the quadrapred as the original was not recovered, also worked for Inferno (and his work is seen in the last warrior cutscenes etc) and for Joe's Silly Soft as well (his cinematics famously missing/being dropped/swapped in wilcox's version), though Ken Post confirmed to me they existed and most likely has/had them in storage.
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Re: Steele Dawn

Post by Acoma » Thu Jun 09, 2022 3:56 pm

Leo(T.C.K.) wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 6:51 pm
What parts? I can give you hints...

Either way, yea..

onp was originally developed as being more serious too come to think of it.
the invincible mansion fight. i couldnt figure out what to do and hurried up and left it

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Re: Steele Dawn

Post by Leo(T.C.K.) » Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:47 pm

You should get away from him, go to the bottom part of the mansion, you need to find a way to open the grate at the rock entrance. Once you pass that gate the skaarj will be gone and you can return and explore the mansion fully. It might help playing the dm version to get familiar wih the layout. After all that level was meant as dm only originally.
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Re: Steele Dawn

Post by Acoma » Fri Jun 10, 2022 4:07 am

thanks leo
yeah the guy who made the mansion also made the flux map right? they look incredible for the time that they were released

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Re: Steele Dawn

Post by Delacroix » Fri Jun 10, 2022 7:58 am

* the girl. Crista Forest. She made Flux (the factory section of Vegra in SD at the moment) and Mansion. And unlike Leo perpetuating the fact that Boltjes made the retextured tundra, I think it was hers as well...

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Re: Steele Dawn

Post by Leo(T.C.K.) » Fri Jun 10, 2022 3:00 pm

Delacroix wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 7:58 am
* the girl. Crista Forest. She made Flux (the factory section of Vegra in SD at the moment) and Mansion. And unlike Leo perpetuating the fact that Boltjes made the retextured tundra, I think it was hers as well...
That's not what I said at all!

I know Crista made the revenant textured tundra!

I meant the Tundra-like map, using nalic set. That was made by boltjes, the autumn/winter thing before yrex turned the rest of the map (parts) into those variants too and combined them.

the skycity/skytown themed thing was made by unknown author indeed.

Automatically merged

Btw....I just realized...did LI ever hire any voice actors for anything whatsoever? Twin Dragon reused normal voices from SW and didn't feature new ones..

I am not familiar with all their work though.

EDIT: well the hung lo boss might have had a new grunt or two and line at the cutscene but that's like not full voice acting at all.
Last edited by Leo(T.C.K.) on Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Steele Dawn

Post by Delacroix » Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:05 pm

Aha. So Boltjes indeed made one of the variants of Town map. I think it's the second section in the Old Township level, then? As in, the Skytown-section (anonymous) being the de facto hub of the residential section of the town (with the port area), and then you go through the Boltjes section before reaching the Farrow section.

To me it's not Tundra-like at all. No wonder I got confused.

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Re: Steele Dawn

Post by Leo(T.C.K.) » Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:47 pm

Delacroix wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:05 pm
Aha. So Boltjes indeed made one of the variants of Town map. I think it's the second section in the Old Township level, then? As in, the Skytown-section (anonymous) being the de facto hub of the residential section of the town (with the port area), and then you go through the Boltjes section before reaching the Farrow section.

To me it's not Tundra-like at all. No wonder I got confused.
Yes, that part. It seems Tundra-like to me, I mean one version was winter to begin with and it has similar nali castle themed buildings/towers. More tundra-like than anything else in the pack (ignoring crista's map with the revenant textures of course).
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Re: Steele Dawn

Post by EvilGrins » Fri Jun 10, 2022 8:26 pm

Since I'm not big into SP I haven't tried this as yet, but where my interests do lay is in new monsters.

Are the monsters for SD usable in standard UT?
http://unreal-games.livejournal.com/
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medor wrote:Replace Skaarj with EvilGrins :mrgreen:
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