XC-Engine / elevator issues

XC-Engine / elevator issues

Postby iSenSe » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:58 pm

Hmm, so let me get this clear.

With XC version 22 running on a server, classic maps like:
DM-1on1-flowX
DM-CItyzen

Are still having elevator issues. (Delays up and down)
So probably (assumption) those map designers used wrong UEditor commands for these elevators, which is why they are behaving badly.

Now, iam curious if this statement is correct:
So as a client, i have to use XC CLIENT in my UT, to NOT get these issues.
Or, all those bad maps have to be re-edited, is that right ?


As a admin, and assuming 80% of the players don't have XC CLIENT, i have to choose for the option NOT to use XC on my server installation.
So the mainstream player base can still enjoy these maps with correct behaving elevators.
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Re: XC_Engine megathread

Postby sektor2111 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:34 pm

Mmm... nope. A Bad map it's a bad map. XC_Engine is trying to fix these and even creating new paths which client... doesn't have and.. won't need them. Sample: DM-Deck16][ - in XC servers Bots are using redeemer and default client has no problems here. Also route to the sniper is open in two-ways when in plain servers has a one-way route. Original clean client has no problems in playing here and server has improved A.I.

The other light: Said map from that "forgotten" map-pack "DM-AMariner" (see known bugs from its description) is messed up having two LiftCenter actors for the same lift (my apology but it looks like a n00b work), else lift(/s) is(/are) pretty much unable to head pawn without the risk to get a turn (or to crash pawn depending on server setup - with an evil mutator). Position for Key-Frame 1 wouldn't waste more electricity if it would bring mover in reachable spot - Why that miserable setup ? And not the last thing, a sniper-rifle is placed already inside boat, Bot has no reason to travel for sniper from top, unless spawns around but still having more desire for other items. Lifts are moving in 8 seconds - easy to aim pawn from lift. I was wondering why are not moving in 8 minutes or maybe 8 hours :loool: and are sitting open for 4 seconds which I think is way too much for a dynamic DM game with 16 players as map claims - I recommend 4 minutes for being more retarded :wth: .
Plain game-play: Blabbering around with 3 Bots, if you have more, they are keep attacking and facing each-other and won't take any sniper too soon - because area is TOO OPEN for a DM. I distracted them with a shield also making a bit of circus - paths do work but taking items is based on battling distraction. PlayerStart which is number 17 has been removed - nothing will use that in plain UT. It's OFF-topic for more explanations about this.
If you want to compare original with edited one I'll drop it in some mapping thread. It uses original UT paths editing devs and I got these paths:
A_Mariner_Decrapified.PNG


As for XC_Engine, Higor did some modifications which have to be clarified toward C++ devs, Monster Gaming Server has XC v22 and everything do works with my setup.

Edit: The Voodoo magic part
Plain UT by EPIC, without XC Engine, can recognize Aerial paths - no kidding here, it's tested and confirmed - I did a very small test map for MonsterHunt using pawns native fliers. They head to the player using my custom nodes and map has reachFlags accordingly - done with UGold Editor from v227i and carefully operated for UT'99 full compatibility. It works, plain and simple demonstrating that UT Editor is a pile of crap because UT dev won't be ever used at 100% capacity if map it's done here - Editor from UT will never add FLY reachFlags even if Original Engine is supporting them. Higor will try to bring these resources at surface with new devs recognized even in vanilla servers because UE1 has a few capabilities unused, map data being very poorly filled in plain UT Editor and paths have USELESS data.
For maps already made supposed to have aerial paths I have an XC mutator capable of mapping them in run-time because you need XC power for aerial support if map it's already done (old maps) else aerial paths will remain a myth - plain client has no issues here - unless will have a heart attack when monsters will roam hunting like mads, never seen before. For new made maps especially Coop, MonsterHunt, etc., probably Higor will have new devs if all C++ chain toward OS running game will go solved. These new maps will definitely run in a plain UT - if mapper is not blabbering with assets which UT doesn't have.

For visual evidences: If Smeerkat wants I can send him that MH map and telling him what to test and how to test. He has the language and hardware resources for explaining what's going on.

Edit2: @Higor
You might use a new bool toward dev-path for run-time stage like for collision deal - ADD that Floor check BACK on demand by said bool value, even it's a bit of processing.
In 2019 we can do paths over bridges for making maps a la "Mario" and not granting access to a route where pawn might fall in a death hole - except flying pawn which won't fall nowhere...
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Re: XC_Engine megathread

Postby iSenSe » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:12 pm

sektor2111 wrote:Mmm... nope. A Bad map it's a bad map. XC_Engine is trying to fix these.


Check, i know enough.
I am not using XC-Engine on a server installation before all these flaws are fixed.
So at least, that every player can enjoy the maps in the way that how they are ment.

Cityzen en FlowX are off course jewels, and need to work as-designed.
Unfortunatly that is without XC at the moment.

You did not answer on my question btw:
Now, iam curious if this statement is correct:
So as a client, i have to use XC CLIENT in my UT, to NOT get these issues.
Or, all those bad maps have to be re-edited, is that right ?

When the client users XC, on a XC server, and plays above maps, are the problems fixed then?
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Re: XC_Engine megathread

Postby sektor2111 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:06 pm

XC_Engine will link properly a lost Lift NOT adding ALL paths because this engine doesn't have "eyes" - a bad map will be the same, flowX is crap but I might use term "jewel" with quotes as replacement, if that was the question, it won't work in any environment. Look for any actor called LiftExit and LiftCenter and see if that crap, oops, I mean map, has such things - these are None - NO PATHS on LIFTS at all - Bots won't use these, and... explain me the hacks required for making a map to work without these toward Mover-Lifts - I think it's possible but it's not this case. Open it in Editor and see what paths are there Lifts are not in discussion. Cityzed it's almost good. Why almost ? Because I already tested some tweaking and A.I. has now more logic toward that lift - this has nothing to do with XC_Engine. Map runs in the same way WITH or WITHOUT XC_Engine by simply adding required routes for preventing Lift's bad timing.

Why I'm using XC_Engine ? It's already explained in documentation what XC does and because of this work for me Higor it's a LEGEND. I'm sorry about others which are not understanding which gates are opened with XC_Engine.

For those maps I had two options: writing patch plugins for making maps well playable with Bots or... EDITING them, Cityzen included - paths on purpose. If you want and maybe will help others to learn something (or not) we can discuss through images such maps if are supposed "ruined" by XC_Engine when in reality XC does nothing for them as messed as they are, but improving a server as an average benefit - in whatever mapping thread or elsewhere.
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Re: XC_Engine megathread

Postby iSenSe » Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:40 pm

I just named 2 maps.
These problems exist in ALOT of all UT content, and you're working around this by re-editing these maps ?

XC Does not know about all these different parameters in maps which the mappers used to get the lifts to open and close.
I understand the source problem lies with the mapper, they used wrong commands/parameters.
The map needs re-editing for a XC serverbuild, to function correct (as-designed) right ?

That goal is really unreachable.
In my nitwit mind i thought XC Client was there, to solve exactly these issues for the clients, so manual re-editing of maps was not needed.

You are assuming that i have UE knowledge, i really own 0.0% of that.
Yes, everything is ''explained'' in the documentation, but does a admin with no coding knowledge understand anything of it ?

But if all above is correct (i hope somebody can state a yes/no), the value (or need) for XC on a server for an admin is not appealing at all.
The admin will face map-failures and is expected to give-in alot of time for everything to be fixed.
Last edited by iSenSe on Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: XC_Engine megathread

Postby sektor2111 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:05 pm

A lot of maps can be tweaked in run-time in order to work well, using some plugins for that mutator or another similar one called NavAdder - if anyone did such another thing. The problem: It's a time consuming task. Tweaking a map like Cityzen took 10 minutes in Editor - for lift timing and making small modifications at paths, else creating patch plugins for original map takes probably 1-2 hours or more depending on map. And yes, UT is full of junks happily spread motivating a "learning process" and sorting good stuff takes months and years. XC_Engine won't edit maps but might help in fixing them if admin wants a new deal.
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Re: XC_Engine megathread

Postby iSenSe » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:15 pm

The thing is sektor, let's be honest.
You are giving me more reasons for not to use XC at all, in any form Server nor Client.

I've used XC from the start till 22 on the server.
The mainstream does not experience anything different playing DM/CTF and such.
We experience more and more lift jerking in maps, which is becoming really annoying.

The back-end is more interesting.
I see more and more errors appearing in logs, and starting to ask myself questions.

I remove XCGE from the server and finally we (players) can fuck around on the lifts again like we always did.
And by coincidence, the zone/circle from the BRUT gametype appears as well, which never appeared WITH XC.

Just my two cents, you catch my drift i hope.
Last edited by iSenSe on Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: XC_Engine megathread

Postby sektor2111 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:28 pm

iSenSe wrote:You are giving me more reasons for not to use XC at all, in any form Server nor Client.
It's opposite for me. NavAdder's paths deploy task won't work without XC Engine. I won't build any server without XC_Engine. Aside for movers, that boat from CrystalMine3 is way better in XC formula than it is without XC_Engine - just a sample. If XC is brutalizing some movers, that map can be excepted from tweaking right in main INI as explained in document. It's about editing configuration after all. Bots which I'm using all time are MBots having add-ons based on XC iterators, excuse me, but I was waiting such engine for years... Now it's here.
Last edited by sektor2111 on Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: XC_Engine megathread

Postby iSenSe » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:30 pm

sektor2111 wrote:It's opposite for me. NavAdder's paths deploy task won't work without XC Engine. I won't build any server without XC_Engine.


sektor2111 wrote:To summarize: you can stop blaming XC_Engine for your junk UNR files supposed to be maps.


Thanks.
I am out.
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Re: XC_Engine megathread

Postby sektor2111 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:56 pm

Okay, I'm tracking these threads to see if Higor has any new information.
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Re: XC_Engine megathread

Postby Higor » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:58 pm

I tried DM-Cityzen locally on NM_ListenServer and the lift didn't exhibit problems.
The only thing I noticed is bots not leaving the lift after it goes up due to bad path placement.
If there's a problem other than that I'd need to check this on the server/maps with said problem.

===

As mentioned earlier XCGE 22 introduced a bug in windows servers that can cause other players/monsters/decoration to flicker.
In more detail, this was introduced with the compiler upgrade after I added a faulty datatype conversion (I'm not using VS2015's msvcrt.lib which contains these conversions so I have to add them myself).
Unlike ALL other UnrealEngine games, UT v432 to v451 particularly uses a different data type to store 'time' values, this was probably done as a workaround for to increase performance in Pentium 2 processors (?).

In UE generally the time value is a simple 'double float' data type.
In UT v432 the data type is a 64-bit integer (FTime) where the high 32 bits represent seconds and the low 32 bits the fraction.
* In HEX, the bitmasks are for High: 0xFFFFFFFF00000000, Low:0x00000000FFFFFFFF.
* The operation to convert this value into a normal 'float' value is loading the whole integer, convert to float and then divide by 4294967296 (which happens to be 0x0000000100000000 when represented as integer)

By looking at the divisor is how I noticed that FTime can be easily processed in two steps without requiring direct handling of 64 bit integers at all.
The below code nicely fixed the bugs.

Code: Select all
This explains the conversion between 'float' to 'FTime'
v is the 64-bit integer
First, we get addresses of both high and low 32-bit parts (contained within 'v')
The rounded value of 'float' to 'int' goes in high part.
We then substract from 'f' said rounded value to get the fraction.
Multiply the faction by 4294967296, round and store in low part.


Code: Select all
//Intel byte order assumed
inline FTime::FTime( float f)
{
   INT& High = ((INT*)&v)[1];
   INT& Low = ((INT*)&v)[0];
   High = appRound(f);
   Low = appRound((f - (float)High)*FIXTIME);
}
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Re: XC_Engine megathread

Postby sektor2111 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:13 pm

Higor wrote:The only thing I noticed is bots not leaving the lift after it goes up due to bad path placement.
Yes, it's too far, more than 500 UU as defined in reachspec.
Higor wrote:As mentioned earlier XCGE 22 introduced a bug in windows servers that can cause other players/monsters/decoration to flicker.
Good to see that you can solve these. Thank you for all this work.
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Re: XC_Engine megathread

Postby iSenSe » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:58 pm

Jeez, even a decent reply is not in these guys...

I was hoping for atleast a confirmation of my statement.
Apparently that is already too much asked, since i got 0 answers to my questions.
Only thing i see is this ass-licking what i see above this post.

Goodluck with your XC tree engine club.
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Re: XC_Engine megathread

Postby sektor2111 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:35 pm

We do have some luck because we can open a map in Editor and being able to figure differences between Cityzen map and FlowX and between Deck16][.
If map FlowX has what we call Bot support and not a guess work I'm going to eat my Computer at once with all cables around...
Else I have other questions as experience exchange toward FlowX - just by an insane personal curiosity:
- Why map uses doors and not Lifts - where are paths involving them;
- If those Movers are intended to have a timing capturing/kidnapping Bot - this is kidnapping not pathing - why were not used two kickers instead of movers, the same as DM-Animalistic - no clue about mover paths - it's a lucky timing there which MBot will deny by default because MBots are not jumping outta horizontal movers into holes and waiting mover to stop and looking for next LiftExit (during an XC session) which is not in account in these junks - in such case I can demonstrate how to setup such a Map, far from how it's currently done.
- Next ? Light me about PathNodes 5, 8 - these are a dumb demonstration of guessing not Bot Pathing knowledge;
- Why PathNode32 needs so many "neighbors" - a guessing more than proving skill.
If you have more such "maps" samples - answers are the same so I won't need to post redundant posting.

And now... to not say that I'm 100% fan of XC - let me repeat:
- collision tweaking is stopped - I have another toys for teleporters which I see better than those TeleporterfixX ruining A.I. games;
- relevance as well - I have my lousy stuff which I like so far;
- several tweaks are deactivated because I'm experimenting my own ones - I'm planning changes from time to time;
- several GameInfo tweaks are also disabled because... all my games have that fixed/rewritten already - Yes, I'm using configurable UScript extensions as long as I don't need all those original tweaks;
- MapVoteX types won't work in XC_Engine - but some tweaked garbage types "attacked" by me are flawless - iterations sorting for 2047 maps is solved - MapVote LA type here;
- I don't like all logging deal - last time I was figuring FALSE lines coming from another actor not from my tags, several lines claims repeated and I think this is wrong.

There are issues, but those are NOT convincing me to return at "PlayerCanSeeMe" crashes and neither at "DynamicLoadObject" bugged a la EPIC, having things improved in XC... packages handling for preventing 500 GB to download in a multi-server due to XC power, etc. etc. never doable in plain UT. Clearly perhaps XC is not for everyone.

Feel free to discuss more situations and let's take a look at images, logs, else we are going nowhere.
iSenSe wrote:Only thing i see is this ass-licking what i see above this post.
This is indeed a "LineOfSight" but... entirely bugged like "maps" described above - I'm sorry if you don't get why I need this Engine - that's it, not everyone is thinking in the same way as others. And this "ass-licking" will stay - if I would be a very rich king, I would pay to Higor 10,000$ for this work - perhaps you don't get what is about...
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Re: XC_Engine megathread

Postby iSenSe » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:08 pm

None of my input is understood here, nor a simple yes/no is stated.

You guys just see FlowX/Cityzen with bad elevators, and going immediately to fix-mode.
While the questions which i had, are nowhere to be answered.

Goodluck in your social skill class.
A-social coders, sigh..

Really, is there not an social guy which has decent/normal replies on questions on this XC debate?
If its only you 2, iam out.

XC Game-Engine has no value at all for any server.
Admins will face ALOT of MAP errors and are EXPECTED to sit down with Sektor and ''discuss'' every map at his wallsoftextjibberish Teaparty.


laters. o/
Last edited by papercoffee on Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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