4 years later...

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Re: 4 years later...

Postby UnrealGGecko » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:21 am

papercoffee wrote:
JackGriffin wrote:Is anyone else interested? I mean seriously interested? I think I'm going to do a new MH but stripped back to simplicity.

Well, I am.

Insert +1 here.
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Re: 4 years later...

Postby nogardilaref » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:19 pm

To be completely honest with you, this sounds like the 4th time someone tries to do a new MH aimed to be simple and to solve all problems from old MH... meaning that the past attempts didn't work that well, otherwise we would only have 2 MH versions by now, the bad one and the good one.
There's MH2 for instance made by you already, and there's another MH which was started by Higor I believe (not sure about the state of that one).

I don't mean to say it's a bad idea however, quite the opposite in fact, but if you're going to proliferate yet another MH version, maybe this ought to be properly done following proper design patterns at the very least.
So perhaps the first thing I would advice you would be to read up on SOLID principles of OOP design. One of the reasons why new MH versions aren't trivial to do due to existing maps is exactly due to the violation of these principles in the first place.

To give you an example, the moment you have actors you place in the map itself bound to the actual MH version running (just like it happens now), you're already killing any potential improvements later on, and incremental improvements are a fundamental thing to support at the very least, since no one is able to build a perfect package from the get-go.

So what you should actually want to do in this case, is something quite similar to what Higor started a long time ago with his own MH version, and is to split MH into 2 packages: one containing only mapping actors (the interface), and the other containing the actual MH code (the implementation).
The mapping actors would have almost no code whatsoever, they would be as dumb as they could possibly be, ideally with only properties to set up at most, and they wouldn't depend on the main package at all, instead the implementation would be the one depending on the mapping package, inverting the dependencies.

This way the maps may remain the same requiring no modifications whatsoever pretty much forever, while the actual MH code may change and be updated over time, and even completely refactored if needed to be.
Otherwise, this new MH version won't really add much value, it will only add up to other existing MH versions and a year from now we will be talking about doing a new MH version all over again over the same concerns in a constant cycle.

If you accept to pursue this route, then perhaps a discussion should be made deciding how these mapping actors would look like: which properties they would have, what they would represent, what they would replace in the current MH maps, stuff like that.
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Re: 4 years later...

Postby sektor2111 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:55 pm

To note:
When that so called 504 was in testing stage everyone was asking if has regenerators, I mean how to activate regenerators and no single dude was describing what issues might occur at random - however being a flexible game-type modding is allowed so fixing is possible when we speak about DEVELOPMENT and not default "ReplaceWith" if you get what I mean. If a new MH will restrict from now on usual dumb over-power, I'm not sure how many people will use it. I'm afraid that MH has gone into one-way route years ago, and that one is down-hill.

Nearby Higor's new MH, which is no longer compatible with any MH2 so cannot be used as main dev, I was trying the same thing. Here I drew a conclusion, trying to conform a good package with a messed up one in my stage was resulting in some random nasty occurrences as follows:
- movers opening uncalled;
- teleporters activated and deactivated by nothing linked with them;
- some Warp-zone going to NON-warp at a triggering moment of other actor and breaking map;
- etc.
Perhaps I did a wrong conformed stuff or such, but that route was a no go, so I was quitting it after 2 months of work and tests I did not even think about releasing such a garbage in public. Much better for me was XC_MonsterHunt which I'm using and it works based on default MH file provided by Shrimp attacking borks VIA XC_Engine and rewriting evil functions.
But I'm curious about any new idea for any other structure - I'm using whatever is good because I do still have free slots in MapVote.
nogardilaref wrote:To be completely honest with you, this sounds like the 4th time someone tries to do a new MH aimed to be simple and to solve all problems from old MH...

And I don't see any problem, these mods are working. If we have dumb mappers this is another story, and lines are completed by admins which do servers for free cheating and mooing there how they want and not how MH is supposed to run. That's the reality.
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Re: 4 years later...

Postby JackGriffin » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:03 pm

I was thinking of creating a much different structure for MH maps. I think it could be done with no replacewith, no need to alter maps in any way at run time. If a mapper wants the map played "X" way then that's how it gets played. The emphasis would be on map completion without dying and I was thinking of creating a database of fastest completed times for maps. I think I could build the entire thing (minus the admin extras like playerlogging) in a half dozen classes. Super simple but challenging.

I get your point though. It's almost surely going to be wasted effort. The MH train has left the station and there's no going back. Guys who like MH would get frustrated and angry quite quickly because for years they have been conditioned to solve problems with larger guns. If you take all that away you are forcing them into a playstyle they neither know nor have any experience with.

It's probably a good idea in principle but very little in the way of practical use.
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Re: 4 years later...

Postby Red_Fist » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:20 pm

I like it, but would want some actor to shove in the map. and the server thing.
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Re: 4 years later...

Postby nogardilaref » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:33 am

I personally disagree with the reasoning of "wasted effort because players aren't going to like it", and what I meant was mostly on the technical side of things (development), rather than on the players side (gameplay), simply due to thoughts on how that could be improved through further iterations and releases without touching a thing in the maps themselves.

However, when thinking about the players perception on the gameplay, well... first off, although UT has a quite small player base, it still has a player base nonetheless, and each player likes different things, and it just so happens that if you have a full server with 20+ players playing CTF for example, all that you know is that at least one of the things these players have in common is liking CTF, but then that says nothing what other modes and stuff they like.

Therefore going with this with the idea of pleasing those who're already used to an overpowered gameplay, I think it's the wrong idea, they're the wrong target audience here.
The real audience are those who actually have a similar vision as you and go to play in your server for a different experience, an experience they like.
So, at the end of the day, the set of players who's going to play in this sort of servers should be fairly different from the ones who play in the ones we have nowadays.

For instance, there are quite some populated MH servers even nowadays, but each server still offers a different experience, and some of them have kept just normal weapons thus far.
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Re: 4 years later...

Postby sektor2111 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:48 am

Discussion around can continue, of course I don't say to not do nothing, I just think that trying to recover old style of playing MonsterHunt or a similar game-play will not be that loved but I'm an exception, of course I will use it if looks good - not only as interface. A.I. tweaks or easy load codes - Monster in discussion the mostly is here because let me tell you something. In original MH, a monster in alarm able to fire projectiles at certain actor was not much doing this in all maps. Codes used and that nasty structure made some A.I. capabilities to go vanished limiting mapper's creativity at a raw primitive style. In later versions these A.I. tweaks are working with no single issue if creatures are configured correctly, this is one of main reasons for which I'm not using default MH controller and nothing else running MonsterShadow in servers - that's a coding abomination - I'm speaking serious here.
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Re: 4 years later...

Postby Red_Fist » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:47 pm

No it's a race, one guy makes a weapon with 50,000 hit points, to cover for a mod that makes the monster 100,000 hit points.

Has nothing to do with pleasing a sector of players and what they want.

So now that the pawn has 100,000 hit points, then the mod increases the 50,000 hit point weapon to do 200,000 hit points.
A vicious cycle that helps no one.

All I gather from this is, it only affects HOW LONG the map lasts to finish in total, NOT if it's less fun, or more fun.

I should make a map that all the pawns are 25 hit points, and a weapon .1 hit points. Then by the time mods get done with it, it will be right back up to the millions. (bigger is not better)

Nope, Jack is correct, an automated dynamic control that can be set by the admin would actually make it better for them to judge HOW LONG the maps plays.
Last edited by Red_Fist on Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4 years later...

Postby JackGriffin » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:11 pm

Starting a new post on this subject.
Terraniux wrote:Veterans are not scary, they get scary when you question them in a inappropriate way.
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