What would be more fun to hunt in MonsterHunt?

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EvilGrins
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What would be more fun to hunt in MonsterHunt?

Post by EvilGrins » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:21 pm

A long time back I requested to see if anyone could make a Godzilla for MH, as accurately as possible. So insanely HUGE (head brushing the sky on some maps) with radioactive breath, etc.

There any number of models someone could convert into a Godzilla monster.

And as for its breath...
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...there are certainly some things that could be adapted.

But that's just me.

What have any of you thought would be fun to fight in MonsterHunt that, so far as you know, nobody's made yet?
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medor wrote:Replace Skaarj with EvilGrins :mrgreen:
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Re: What would be more fun to hunt in MonsterHunt?

Post by Barbie » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:21 pm

Yes, it has a damaging smell. But no, it is not sooo huge.
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Re: What would be more fun to hunt in MonsterHunt?

Post by JackGriffin » Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:32 am

I never forgot you on this EG. The insurmountable problem is that Godzilla would flicker in and out no matter what tricks were employed. The sad thing is that I had the entire project storyboarded out into three maps:
1. Intro and Halo jump

2. Injection into the city with puzzles to work out to reach the city center. This would allow you to glimpse Godzilla and hear the carnage get closer.
3. The actual boss fight.

I had so much ready for this. I have a Godzilla model ready (you've seen the preview shots I made a couple of years ago). I was going to allow for damaged areas of Godzilla, meaning if you shot up his arm it would stay bloody and if you burned/scorched his leg it would stay that way. Destructible environments, heavy immersion, Godzilla breath, the whole bit. It could all be done but it would be a single player thing that would never work online.

Secretly I wanted this as my final contribution. I'm sorry it will never happen. I considered doing it for 227 since I think I could get it done but it's a project that needs multiple hundred hours of effort and I don't want to do that for the 5 people who still actually play Unreal coop. This should be for the monsterhunters I served those last years.
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Re: What would be more fun to hunt in MonsterHunt?

Post by SC]-[WARTZ_{HoF} » Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:43 am

If you decide to complete this I will run a unreal 227 server.
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Re: What would be more fun to hunt in MonsterHunt?

Post by sektor2111 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:59 am

Another thing not taking damage properly because... This is how some players are leaving stage, but yeah, it's time to clean up last players...

Is not more fun to get some of those MH Garbages and to setup some game using more recent assets and recovering those mindless released junks ?
Me personally I find an alternate fun when you stay almost sleeping (relaxing your tired legs) and monsters are hunting you (game it's called MonsterHunt after all) - that can be more entertaining that trying to display a big mesh which is ALWAYS a problem in UT.

To answer at question: What would be more fun to hunt In MonsterHunt - Players, yeah hunting players (monsters doing this). Why not ? I want reasonable answers if you say No, and not some chicken type replies.

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Re: What would be more fun to hunt in MonsterHunt?

Post by JimmyCognitti » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:46 am

Beating the crap outta these pricks would be really fun and rewarding in MH:
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Re: What would be more fun to hunt in MonsterHunt?

Post by JackGriffin » Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:13 am

Edit: Gonna add a really big "IMHO" to this entire post now that I've reread it in case that's not glaringly obvious.
SC]-[WARTZ_{HoF} wrote:If you decide to complete this I will run a unreal 227 server.
Not trying to sound like I'm discouraging you but it would just sit empty no matter how wonderful you made it. There's a core of folks who have downloaded the 227 updates and install them but it's not a lot. My coop server was set up about as openly as you could imagine and it got a couple of joins a week max. There's just not anyone around to enjoy anything new. The guys playing UT know that 227 is superior but they just stick with UT and I totally get that. I came back from 2K4 and then again from UT3 for the same reasons.

I appreciate the fact that you'd support it though :tu:
sektor2111 wrote:Me personally I find an alternate fun when you stay almost sleeping (relaxing your tired legs) and monsters are hunting you (game it's called MonsterHunt after all) - that can be more entertaining that trying to display a big mesh which is ALWAYS a problem in UT.

To answer at question: What would be more fun to hunt In MonsterHunt - Players, yeah hunting players (monsters doing this). Why not ? I want reasonable answers if you say No, and not some chicken type replies.
I know we have talked about this at length when I was trying to do that base defense MH map. Scripted pawn could work with a detailed trigger system but if you really wanted to do it right you might rewrite S.Pawn to allow monsters the intelligence and freedom to actively hunt and pursue players. Bots need a path network, why not make one for monsters? Can you imagine a Minotaur that can actively navigate a complex maze as it chases and taunts you from just around the corners? What about enemies that don't just stream directly towards you but actively flank and try to surround where you are going? I played a lot of Arma2 and the bots in that are pretty damn good at path prediction and using flanking to try to hem you in. In MH it wouldn't matter if it was just 50 pupae if they used cover to approach you and spread out to attack. With minimal improvements almost all the MH maps could be nearly impossible to complete without dying. It would take players relearning how to fight them because they can't just stand in place and pump rounds in a straight line.

Anyway, this is veering off course but I always enjoyed this type of discussion. MH is way overdue for a paradigm shift in how it's played or it's going to perish. At one time I thought bot improvements were the way to go but after Nels vastly improved them it felt less like a team hunt and more like a competition between myself and the bots. The bots got way smarter but the monsters behaved SO predictably that you can catch yourself shooting towards where the monsters are going because they have no other behavior. It became pretty easy for a team of Nel's bots to just blast through an MH map and I just followed them and watched. Great execution on his part but it's a case of 'too good for their own good'.

TL/DR: If someone were to make a new scripted pawn that was intelligent, tactical, and allowed for mappers better behavior control it would pull MH from the brink of obscurity.

All the parts for this already exist.
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Re: What would be more fun to hunt in MonsterHunt?

Post by Red_Fist » Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:37 am

Why not do something stupid like a Fatboy mutator, start with a large head over a building with killer breath flames, then each stage he shrinks. Start full body mesh as high or big as UT will work with, reverse Fatboy.
Down to ant size, but make the projectiles have more damage the smaller and less health he gets.
And just use the existing intro city map. :noidea
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Re: What would be more fun to hunt in MonsterHunt?

Post by sektor2111 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:29 am

JackGriffin wrote:Bots need a path network, why not make one for monsters? Can you imagine a Minotaur that can actively navigate a complex maze as it chases and taunts you from just...
Jack, hey, stop a bit... and let's dig into memory...
NsDM3 (my deathmatch versions which I'm using) is capable to make some monster party even if it's about Default monster - read this well - a half of action is ScriptedPawn itself and another part is a small actor injecting monsters with mushrooms or imagine what you want... The problem from monster and bot confrontation in long games is that might lock server... and here I'm suspecting a bad attitude code - no attitude to Other.bDeleteMe and or attacking already killed pawns (a la Epic - Berserker crash loop here). When I switched to NsMonster these problems have gone. It is also a modified MH map (some beta3-excuse crap) which I'm using, where I was tired of hunting monsters in the forest and all I have to do is walking around ammo spots and... waiting. Karma shows up shortly picking random players (any player) - except some stupid mantas all ground units are attacking random players. Another fixed one was used in my past open public MH server - "South Players" were asking me about more such maps with "active monsters" - you can imagine the next chat (summary): We do not have more such maps because every single mapper in MH is ALWAYS BUSY with doing Sleeping Monsters. No One asked for a MyLevel toy in order to make some party except me... and then I wrote something as long as nobody else participated.
Do not forget that S.Pawn can be loved a bit (sanity checks mainly)- Both UnrealShare and UnrealI can be conformed with original stock versions and you can see something different - as for evidence to not talk dreams or to say that I'm fooling you, go to Monster Gaming Server and see a DeathMatch (see if there monsters are only sitting looking at walls) and then you can test a MH map with a Queen - "The Queen" from there is not touched with XC_Engine it's an "original" and won't break games because I loved "state teleporting" and encroachment - no more stupid game breaking - I told already, in 2019 we do have valid options for a new UT quality - I did not see any Berserker crashing any more since I dropped a line in "Master State" and that Fly:Timer:Accessed none it's history. As for Navigation - you have to adapt it at creatures used - navigation code is open for ANY Pawn (Alarmpoints, Patrolpoints on purpose are solid evidences but not all mappers can do the setup :omfg: ). Some day I have to drop out a MH sample with a map with pupaes - not one of those where you sit on a top spot and firing at stupid pupaes, but one with a plain field and... pupaes chasing you as long as I saw more annoying maps with some title like PupaeSomething and they were hilarious - nothing more dumb. Servers from now day can roam 200 Monsters pretty smoother, we do have all required technology, what are we waiting for ?

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Re: What would be more fun to hunt in MonsterHunt?

Post by Higor » Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:36 am

Suicide bomber pupaes.
They hit you and BOOM.
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Re: What would be more fun to hunt in MonsterHunt?

Post by papercoffee » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:02 pm

Higor wrote:Suicide bomber pupaes.
They hit you and BOOM.
Flies. ...bzzzzz.... BOOOOOOM!!

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Re: What would be more fun to hunt in MonsterHunt?

Post by OjitroC » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:17 pm

Higor wrote:Suicide bomber pupaes.
They hit you and BOOM.
As the KamikazePupaes from UTLMarine.u do - though this one is just waiting for a victim
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Re: What would be more fun to hunt in MonsterHunt?

Post by JackGriffin » Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:47 pm

sektor2111 wrote:we do have all required technology, what are we waiting for ?
I do love your changes and your incredible ability to get things done and I have no doubt your modifications improve things. What I'm talking about is a ground-up reworking so that you don't need to know anything but placing monsters for them to work. It should be the case that if a couple of skaarj encounter each other organically while moving around the map then they would team up and work together, using simple tactics like cover and evasion.

In my idea I see the ability to design a single path network for the monsters but internally it allows for assigning of teams to each node. UT allows for 255 teams so why not use that to the monster's advantage? Imagine a grid of 4X4 pathnodes (16 total) in a large, square room. Each node in this network has switches to "turn on" the grid for each "team". Once you have that code you could easily set up different patrols for smaller sections. Two mercs (set as team '123') can patrol the top left 2X2 section for example and remain in that area. If you encounter them and they pursue you but aren't killed (or they kill you) they wander until they find their home section again. If those two mercs encounter other mercs then they just join the new team and it's group is stronger.

Simple tactics are not that hard to implement. Flanking, ambushing, retreat and evasion, using cover...these are all fairly simple proximity checks that the pawns could make. Do that and 6 mercs firing while using cover and moving to flank you is WAY more dangerous than those same six using the same path in a line towards you.

Years ago I understood that the MH arms race was going to ruin the game and that's what has happened. MH should try to go back to it's roots and implement balanced gameplay where skill is rewarded and players absolutely MUST play with caution or they are going to die. The answers to the problems was never bigger, faster, more damage monsters. It was simply smarter ones. Monsterhunters should need to depend on each other and teammates who just go and leave the team to run ahead should be punished for that. L4D2 has a great system for that in that you are always in danger of being trapped by a monster and need a teammate close by to free you or you'll die. That should be in MH somehow if there are multiple players in the level.

Anyway it's never going to happen but I enjoy thinking about it. Thanks guys for letting me do that thinking out loud.
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Re: What would be more fun to hunt in MonsterHunt?

Post by sektor2111 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:33 pm

JackGriffin wrote:In my idea I see the ability to design a single path network for the monsters but internally it allows for assigning of teams to each node. UT allows for 255 teams so why not use that to the monster's advantage? Imagine a grid of 4X4 pathnodes (16 total) in a large, square room. Each node in this network has switches to "turn on" the grid for each "team".
Yaaay, now that's a good point. Higor is mastering these devs but... if I'm thinking well I can draw some network where certain pawns can be deviated to other needed routes and even taking projectiles flying in account for avoiding them, I wrote such nodes for Bots, not helping 100% because of timings, but... as average, reaction was improved. Default problem is that team byte from Scriptedpawn is hidden - not TeamTag indeed - but these are visible for me and... TeamTag is the goal which can be completed externally by a small toy if that one is not suffice and Leader is spamming errors (yes, Epic, that's you ). I can setup a few groups, each of them in a separate team and heading to their own mission but... environment (maybe some tunnels) is needed here, all should be a story or something like that. Definitely a custom CreatureFactory setting up more stuff for monsters can do other magic. The same stock fly or pupae might be in a different team and color reacting different... All we have to do is using that SpecialCost, SpecialHandling, etc., to not forget dynamic nodes which can route pawns alternating their way on a left side of a box and then on the right side - also I wrote similar nodes but addressing a spot not two locations which is more simple to do. All modders after 20 years can deal only with PostBeginPlay and TakeDamage and Skins ? Too bad then...

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Re: What would be more fun to hunt in MonsterHunt?

Post by EvilGrins » Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:44 am

JackGriffin wrote:I never forgot you on this EG. The insurmountable problem is that Godzilla would flicker in and out no matter what tricks were employed.
Was pretty sure you'd remember.

What if it wasn't so GINORMOUS? Say like the size of 4 titans merged?? That's still pretty big.

More realistic monsters... Ewoks. They're short, fluffy, cute, and throw spears at players.

Or...
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I'm thinking like the movie Rocky, it can attack you but mostly it runs away and hides. You get too close and it will peck you.
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medor wrote:Replace Skaarj with EvilGrins :mrgreen:
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