About paid work...

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Feralidragon
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About paid work...

Post by Feralidragon » Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:29 pm

Stuff like this:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=14214
is exactly why I always turned down every offer like this, with no exception, even during the times I was short on money myself.

Every single thing I have accepted to do was for free, and I only did it because I wanted to do it, whereas anything I didn't want to do I just turned it down, paid or free.

But I do understand why some would take the offer and do some paid work for UT99, so in order to prevent future issues like this, where stuff like this is brought to this forum and ends up being a flame war pretty quickly between the parts without a decisive and clear outcome of who's actually right or wrong, I decided to write here a little something which you can follow to make your life easier and have irrefutable proof of whatever happens (I was going to post this in the topic directly, but it was locked, and I still feel I should talk a bit about this).

Essentially, many of those who offer to pay something to get something done fail to understand a few key things:
  • once the good is delivered, as long as it does what was agreed to do (the requester tests it and it works), it's done, technical support after that is not an obligation of the developer, unless there's an agreement saying otherwise (this means that any bugs found some time afterwards during its usage are not the responsibility of the developer to fix, by default);
  • whether the good is actually used is not a factor at all in whether it should be paid: if you requested something and agreed to pay, if once it's done you changed your mind that's your problem, not the developer's, so you have to pay whether you use it or not;
  • new features for something that was delivered are obviously out of the scope of what was originally requested, so the developer has no obligation to do them either, no matter how tiny or simple they may look to be.
Likewise, many developers fail to properly close the scope of the agreement, and as a result they are exploited to no end because they themselves still feel responsible in doing things that they're not really responsible for.

So for developers out there who intend to get some extra money in doing requests like this, you must make the requester agree to the following points:
  • the exact scope of the project: request an exact description of what is desired, and a list of exact features, and close the scope clearly to only those features;
  • the time and scope of any technical support afterwards: define a specific amount of time to provide support and bug fixes to what you developed, or specify you won't give it at all;
  • define an exact amount of time to give the requester to test and validate what you did: it's the duty of whom requested something to validate it asap and not make you wait, so define that time as well;
  • the exact scope of where's supposed to work and with what: often something may not work correctly in the end due to the environment it's going to be in (like having other conflicting mutators in the server a mod is going to run);
  • define a payment plan: it's generally suggested to require half of the payment upfront, and the other half afterwards, so that if the requester ends up screwing you over at the end, at least you aren't left with nothing.
If you do these as a developer, and do it correctly, written, and record all the proof possible of the agreement, this is the sort of stuff you can use either legally later, or if you don't want or cannot pursue the legal route, the proof that you will have will be enough to alert others of that person.

Of course, there are also many cases where the developer fails to deliver what was agreed upon, so this agreement also protects the one who requested the stuff to be developed in the same fashion (it acts as a contract essentially), as proof of what was requested, agreed upon, and what was actually delivered.

I am not saying whether or not PrinceOfFunky is right in the topic he created, as I don't have enough info from such a topic alone to make any sort of judgement myself, and quite honestly I don't really want myself to get into that can of worms either.

I just wanted to state above how business like this should be conducted so there are no doubts in the end, which the one exposed here clearly lacks on many fronts.

Of course, the preferable thing to do is to simply stay away from those sorts of arrangements to begin with, especially in relation to an old game like this, but if you really want to pursuit it, make sure to build a proper written agreement like the above (it doesn't need to be "professional" or complicated, just make it so that it answers the points above and that you both agree to it).


NOTE: The other topic was locked, meaning that all discussion about this subject cannot be a continuation of the specific case exposed in that topic.
If anyone feels like the other topic should be discussed properly, contact the moderators to reopen it again, as this topic is more to raise awareness on how to avoid pain like this, and even discuss it to some extent if you wish.

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EvilGrins
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Re: About paid work...

Post by EvilGrins » Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:46 am

Fine... you may pay me for this reply, but pay me well.
💸🤪💰

Yeah, I've never understood mappers or skinners that ask for payment, or price their work. Seems mostly silly to me.
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Re: About paid work...

Post by Feralidragon » Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:57 am

EvilGrins wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:46 am
Yeah, I've never understood mappers or skinners that ask for payment, or price their work. Seems mostly silly to me.
Because it's silly being paid for work?
Assuming that you have a job: would you do it for free?

Although normally we all develop for the game for essentially "free" (including myself, never charged anyone for anything in respect to UT99), that's merely because we do it as a hobby and to just have fun with it.

However things are drastically different when you're doing work for someone else: you may do it for free (I have done as well, the few projects I accepted, all the 1 map and a few mods here and there), but others may not.
And it's actually far more understandable why someone would require payment to do work for someone else, rather than the other way around.

Doing free things for someone else is actually the one that is weird, and the only reason for doing it that way is just out of kindness or because you're having fun doing it.
It's just that the community has openly done it for free for so long that now some people (like you) may see it as silly, when it's far more silly to feel entitled to free stuff from the community.

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Re: About paid work...

Post by EvilGrins » Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:14 am

Feralidragon wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:57 am
Because it's silly being paid for work?
Assuming that you have a job: would you do it for free?
I had an essential service until the start of September, and no I would not have done that for free as I like paying my rent on time.

However I feel there is a distinction between a job I do for a living and whatever work I do on making things for a game. Even a game as great as this one.

The last person I crossed paths with who demanded payment for anything he made for UT was that numbnut Destroyer who was cyberstalking and harassing you... I'd rather not do anything that was the same as him.
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Re: About paid work...

Post by Feralidragon » Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:00 am

Only because he was demanding payment for something, that doesn't make the practice itself inherently a bad one whatsoever.
Please separate the practice from the person, no good judgement comes from associating both into one and the same thing (like payment = crazy because "he did it", that association is just wrong).

Just to be clear: there's a difference between selling mods and maps, and selling your time to do a mod or a map.

The first is not even allowed in the EULA if I recall, which is one big reason why there aren't exactly any paid mods and maps for this game, and subsequent generations of the game (UT2004 and UT3), which had the same rule in their EULA (if my memory doesn't fail me).

The second is something an EULA cannot really cover or forbid, because it falls completely outside of the scope of one.
When you ask someone to develop a UT99 map or mod for a set amount of money, what you're actually paying for is the time the developer has to put into developing it, to the point that in most cases the developer could simply release it to the world if the agreement doesn't mention anything about keeping it private.

Even if it's not common asking for payment to put the time into something, and even if you and me don't really do this, it doesn't make it wrong.

If you ever checked art platforms, where people submit their art to the world, one thing that generally happens is that artists are often open to do "commissions".
A commission is the following: you have something on your mind you want an artist to paint/create for you, so you pay one of those artists to do it for you, and at the end you get what you paid for, but more often than not the artists also reserve the right to release it to the world, also as part of their portfolio, meaning that in the end the artist didn't sell the artwork itself, but rather the time spent on making it.

What I am talking about here is something very similar, the exact type of case I originally referred to in this thread.
Last edited by Feralidragon on Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Deepu
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Re: About paid work...

Post by Deepu » Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:01 am

:gj:
Last edited by Deepu on Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: About paid work...

Post by Feralidragon » Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:04 am

^ Please read my last note from my first post Deepu, this topic is not meant to continue the dirty laundry from the other topic.

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Re: About paid work...

Post by PrinceOfFunky » Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:53 pm

Thanks for having cleared things out, devs need to know how not to be exploited at all. I wasn't prepared about most of the things you talked about.
Also, it doesn't easily come to mind for some people that it doesn't necessarily have to be you who ask for money but rather you're being offered money.
Feralidragon wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:04 am
^ Please read my last note from my first post Deepu, this topic is not meant to continue the dirty laundry from the other topic.
It was just a good job emoji, let's not turn this forum into a hate blog.
"Your stuff is known to be buggy and unfinished/not properly tested"

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Re: About paid work...

Post by Gustavo6046 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:37 pm

Feralidragon wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:57 am
[...] never charged anyone for anything in respect to UT99
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Smells like working group investigation. :P

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Re: About paid work...

Post by Feralidragon » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:52 pm

PrinceOfFunky wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:53 pm
Thanks for having cleared things out, devs need to know how not to be exploited at all. I wasn't prepared about most of the things you talked about.
Also, it doesn't easily come to mind for some people that it doesn't necessarily have to be you who ask for money but rather you're being offered money.
Yeah, it's more often the case that person A wants something to be done, so that person is the one contacting developers with a paid offer, at which point is up to the developer to either accept it, turn it down or negotiate a different amount.
These guidelines are fully applicable in all cases however.
PrinceOfFunky wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:53 pm
Feralidragon wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:04 am
^ Please read my last note from my first post Deepu, this topic is not meant to continue the dirty laundry from the other topic.
It was just a good job emoji, let's not turn this forum into a hate blog.
And you didn't find it odd at all that I made such a reply to a "good job emoji"? :)
If you look carefully you will see that he edited his post after I made my reply, as his original reply was actually a reply meant to the topic you had created around this issue, and it was over my reply he edited it to just be a good job emoji. :wink:

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Re: About paid work...

Post by PrinceOfFunky » Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:33 am

Feralidragon wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:52 pm
PrinceOfFunky wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:53 pm
Feralidragon wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:04 am
^ Please read my last note from my first post Deepu, this topic is not meant to continue the dirty laundry from the other topic.
It was just a good job emoji, let's not turn this forum into a hate blog.
And you didn't find it odd at all that I made such a reply to a "good job emoji"? :)
If you look carefully you will see that he edited his post after I made my reply, as his original reply was actually a reply meant to the topic you had created around this issue, and it was over my reply he edited it to just be a good job emoji. :wink:
Oh, didn't noticed the "edited" label, thanks for having pointed it out .o.
"Your stuff is known to be buggy and unfinished/not properly tested"

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Re: About paid work...

Post by Gustavo6046 » Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:43 am

Indian guy a little too flamboyant don't you think.

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Re: About paid work...

Post by Deepu » Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:42 pm

😉

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Re: About paid work...

Post by UnrealGGecko » Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:36 pm

Gustavo6046 wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:43 am
Indian guy a little too flamboyant don't you think.
Not cool man, not cool :thudown:

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Re: About paid work...

Post by Leo(T.C.K.) » Wed Nov 04, 2020 3:01 pm

I have no clue what the original thread was about. Fact is I have done ton of free work and often it's not fun. Sometimes I took it as something that needs to be done but I really felt disapointed when I put a lot of time and effort into something that then doesn't end up being released by the team leader. Some of such files are lost, but there were a couple of such projects I worked on in the late 2000s. Some of them were related to the czech unreal and ut community so not something you'd likely have heard about.

Given that I have no job neither a state support currently after everything that happened in the past years plus this crap crisis situation, I could very much use some donrations or paid work for someone, but that is out of necesity. Because the money is running out fast and I can't stay dependand on a single person in life whose income is also falling apart.