How to recognize a cheater

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Nicefu
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Re: How to recognize a cheater

Post by Nicefu » Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:03 pm

Okay guys. I could follow this through the end, but I understand what you're trying to say. You see who I'm talking about and I think you know who I am. "Find another server" if I was westernized in a non-sest game... Trust me guys. I know how cheats work and I know how ping works and I even know that he was banned on another server (PUG) :mrgreen:

Dennis. if the server was mine.... :loool: I don't have a server, I just love to play UT.

I'm just trying to say "The Pen Is Blue" and you guys say the pen is red. :lol2:


Okay, I think we'll stop there, although I can go through with it. But this will lead to bad attitudes towards normal people. It's up to you guys to close the topic or what to do next ... good luck!

TARZANFROMJUNGLE
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Re: How to recognize a cheater

Post by TARZANFROMJUNGLE » Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:17 pm

For what it’s worth - 99% sure this guy cheats yes. Very different from the insta guys on that server with fantastic aim. Played this game long enough to spot the cheat (which to this day I hardly ever accuse anyone of).
I don't have an attitude problem, you have a perception problem.

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Feralidragon
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Re: How to recognize a cheater

Post by Feralidragon » Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:28 pm

Then that begs the question: if he's indeed cheating, then what kind of cheat do you think he's using?

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Hitman
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Re: How to recognize a cheater

Post by Hitman » Mon Apr 11, 2022 5:40 pm

Most of us that are older Admins can spot this, and if you hesitate to kick him out he will drain your server from players cos none will join so trust your gut and use latest ACE if its your server=your rules, that's my advice..
Last edited by Hitman on Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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TankBeef
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Re: How to recognize a cheater

Post by TankBeef » Mon Apr 11, 2022 5:47 pm

Hitman wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 5:40 pm
use latest ACE if its your server=your rules that's my advice..
The interesting part is...that server has ACE. I know cause it kicked me out a couple of times (not for cheating, but because I had HD textures and they were not whitelisted). :noidea

Eternity
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Re: How to recognize a cheater

Post by Eternity » Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:23 pm

"Kick out" is ineffective way against serious motivated cheater that makes real harm... He will change IP, all machine ID's, and will come back, again and again... You will have to be on a duty in 24x7 mode to "kick him out".
The only effective way is a technical solutions, that makes it either impossible to cheat or useless/no sense to cheat - so that he either can not cheat or does not get satisfaction/expected result from the cheat.
However, some admins disagree with that point under various pretexts... In a lot of cases i had to observe for many years in past (not only in UT99), this was the only obstacle that prevented to implement appropriate technical solutions...

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SilverSound
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Re: How to recognize a cheater

Post by SilverSound » Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:51 pm

This is a great example of why innocent players get banned for no reason. Ego's and people who think they "know" what's going on.

Ferali has a great point and Tank cements that point. If he's cheating what is he using? How could he possibly be getting around something like ACE?

Sorry unless you can prove those 2 things, nothing will convince me this person is cheating. I'm personally sick of "the boy who cried cheat" in video games.
"Woah what?! I wish I was recording that...."

Nicefu
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Re: How to recognize a cheater

Post by Nicefu » Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:48 pm

Guys. I say that this is a cheat - you say well, say the name of it. really ? what's the difference ???
Do you seriously think it's hard to pass ACE ? it's 2022.
It's not about Ego here, it's about 40% of the people on the server saying he's a cheater. But many do not want to waste time complaining.


That's what I understood from your words guys.
1 "he's a cheat but we can't do anything" :lol2:
2 We are not the admins of this server. and you too, so shut up :lol2:
3 say the name of the program (cheat) or you're an asshole. :lol2:

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Feralidragon
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Re: How to recognize a cheater

Post by Feralidragon » Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:33 pm

So... you quite literally registered a new account in this forum to seek external validation to your claims, and you didn't get it, and now you're ridiculing what other people are saying to you?
You're not getting many friends here with that kind of attitude, and as a matter of fact you're only proving our own skepticism to be the right stance on this matter.

Whether this person is really a cheater or not doesn't really matter, if you already decided that this person is in fact a cheater in your mind.

If you cannot admit the possibility of this person not using cheats, and if you're brushing aside all questions that we're making so you can prevent yourself from being proven wrong, and you cannot even tell the kind of cheat that was used (when apparently you had 100% confirmation) then that means this topic had nothing but ill intentions when it was created, just to stroke your own ego further, because there's no way this could actually be a good player but with a shitty connection, right?

Also, I asked for the kind of cheat, not an exact name: you cannot tell that it's an aimbot, or a trigger bot, or a NN exploit, or something else? What was 100% confirmed then?
Then why are you saying he's cheating, if you cannot even figure out what kind of cheats this player is using?

Then going off saying that it's easy to bypass ACE and whatnot: do you realize that the person behind ACE is still actively updating it, along with updating the very game itself through new patches?
If you're so sure that players are passing through, why the hell don't you send him the footage and all the proof that you have, maybe even the cheat that was being used if you have any that can actually bypass ACE at all?

There's a common saying: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and you provided none of it thus far, so the only reasonable position is that of skepticism.
What older admins say doesn't really matter at all and isn't reliable at all, especially when most of them don't really know how the mods they use and game itself work at the lowest level.

Nicefu
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Re: How to recognize a cheater

Post by Nicefu » Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:23 pm

Feralidragon

See. I have never offended anyone. not him not you guys.
Why am I so skeptical?
Because I showed you that his aim is too far from the center. Tell me, do you see a fake in my videos or posts?

Excuse me. I wasn't trying to disrespect anyone. I even understand that he may be an admin there... probably I had to hide nicknames, that there was no biased attitude

Again I say why others do not have such a long difference in aim? There is a saying. "everything is relative" (everything can be seen through comparison) I understand if a couple of centimeters but not so much?

Everything I wrote is "sad but ..." :)

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SilverSound
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Re: How to recognize a cheater

Post by SilverSound » Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:33 pm

Nicefu wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:23 pm

Because I showed you that his aim is too far from the center. Tell me, do you see a fake in my videos or posts?

Excuse me. I wasn't trying to disrespect anyone.

Again I say why others do not have such a long difference in aim?
We already explained to you why the aim is the way it is in the videos.
We answered your questions indepth.

The issue is you are actively ignoring them and going in circles.
"Woah what?! I wish I was recording that...."

Deaod
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Re: How to recognize a cheater

Post by Deaod » Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:05 pm

You are trying to prove a cheating case with a 60FPS video of what you saw when you were spectating them. Just stop. Seriously, drop it. You cant possibly hope to prove anything.
For one, the directions players look in is 256 times less accurate when spectating someone than when looking at a client-side demo recorded with UTPure (or related mods, like NewNet).
For another, you cant reconstruct what the player actually saw when spectating them (the position of other players is different).
Then there's the issue of knowing when players actually pressed fire, which is also non-trivial.

When you have a non-obvious case, like this one, you need better evidence like a client-side demo (good luck getting that), you need tools to extract more information than what you can see, and sometimes you need a video recording of every single frame the player saw (player running the game at 390 FPS? prepare to spend >1 hour recording).

After all that you still haven't gotten to the analysis part, where a good understanding of the netcode is key. This is also non-trivial because as far as i know there aren't any tools publicly available that help there.

All this for a video that looks like a good player to me.

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Feralidragon
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Re: How to recognize a cheater

Post by Feralidragon » Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:52 pm

Nicefu wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:23 pm
See. I have never offended anyone. not him not you guys.
Why am I so skeptical?
You're being downright dishonest with your statements, which is akin to insulting others.
Because you already decided this player was cheating, and so you're ignoring everything we're explaining to you that shows otherwise.

Furthermore, you may want to look up the meaning of "skeptical", because you're not being skeptical at all, you're completely biased in favor of accusing this specific player of cheating.
Skepticism is akin to "innocent until proven guilty", and you're doing the opposite here.

You have failed to demonstrate enough proof this player was cheating from these videos alone.
Nicefu wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:23 pm
Because I showed you that his aim is too far from the center. Tell me, do you see a fake in my videos or posts?
No one said they are fake at all.
And I have already explained, twice, what might actually be going on in the video you recorded.

Deaod above also extended with more info, because he touched very relevant subjects on this matter here: the fact that spectator mode is simulated, and is using fairly inaccurate data to do so, because things like vectors and rotators are compressed when replicated across a network, meaning you loose tons of precision, hence you cannot use this as "proof" of anything, because you're not actually seeing what the player is seeing, you're just seeing a simulation that the server is sending to you, based on a list of data points sent by the player first, and which are then interpolated in your own view, it's only an approximation to what the player saw, not what he really saw, it's that simple.

The only way to make it more accurate, is if either game patches or mods do so, but even then you have to ask about how those actually work internally, and how reliable they really are.
The fact alone that New Net is being used in the first place in servers like those, should be a strong enough factor to lay to rest to these types of cases, because in case you don't know: New Net makes things much worse in the reliability department, just like any other mod of its kind.

The most reliable experience is and still continues to be the standard online experience without any lag compensation or zeroping-style mods, the type where you have to lead your shots according to your latency.
Anything that either does lag compensation or client-hit detection will inevitably always lead to this sort of experience, because it skews the net code completely into being in favor of each individual client, running basically multiple timelines at the same time in parallel, instead of the server being the only timeline that actually matters.

If you and other "admins" cannot understand something this basic, then you really have no business in accusing anyone of anything because you have no clue of what you're talking about and what is actually going on.

Is far more likely a player to be suspected of cheating due to his performance alone at playing the game, rather than silly things like the ones being presented in these videos.
Even if this player is in fact cheating, what is shown in these videos do not show any evidence at all of that, unless you have a good explanation on what kind of cheats he's using and how does that affect this player view differently when spectating, so go ahead, we're waiting...

Nicefu
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Re: How to recognize a cheater

Post by Nicefu » Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:01 am

I completely understand you. Feralidragon
I just asked one thing WHY WHEN I WATCH OTHERS THERE IS NO SUCH A GIANT DISTANCE IN AIM... ?
In response, I don’t get anything, only you don’t know this you don’t know that.

I didn't come here to get his banned. I already said it
Need evidence? I don't want to do this... because it will offend a few people. If I bring this to the end (My occupation is such that I can) then I will find enemies for myself, which I really do not want.

My mistake was that I didn't cover up his nickname, but that's in the past.
Guys. On this point I think we will end the conversation. Because we have different mentality, different language, different values. It's hard for us to understand each other.

Good luck to you all. Don't be afraid to speak the truth :)

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SilverSound
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Re: How to recognize a cheater

Post by SilverSound » Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:19 am

It's clear you don't know the facts or want to recognize them. This is a waste of time now.

You and any other admin with your mentality doesn't need to be in this community. You are the reason innocent people get banned or accused of "Cheating".
"Woah what?! I wish I was recording that...."