new UED 2.2 !

[Tim-_-]

Great post, Smirftsch. Not that my input presently holds much weight on these forums, but I did seem to notice a trend among some comments where it seemed like people were making pretty big assumptions about the technicality of your work along with a strong sense of entitlement regarding its direction. I've experienced the same type of backlash myself, so I can relate. Although there's not much I could have said, so I'm glad you found this thread and set the record straight.

I grew up playing Unreal (U1 community might remember me as Fux3d. or [i0]Bestia hehe) and only made my way to UT in recent years, so I'd like to thank you Smirftsch (and the rest of the OldUnreal crew) for your incredible work with 227. You may not remember me, but I visited your forums a while back for some guidance with an issue at the core of the engine (specifically calling SetLocation many times which could crash the engine because of bad garbage collection).

But anyway, I just wanted to take a moment to chime in on the thread and give thanks and show my support!

[UT99.org]

@Smirftsch

A few points I want to make (as another who's opinion doesn't hold a lot of weight on these forums ). You guys working on the Unreal game are amazing, I am always amazed every single time I see what you are coming out with. Apart from: Ferali's work, AnthraX, and what Higor decides to release. No offense to anyone else, but not a whole lot of ground breaking stuff coming from UT community

Now, about your somewhat sarcastic remark. I think you might be looking into this wrong, the game already has many bugs that are correctable through the botpack file. And I'm going to state what I think given a fair comparrison is a majority opinion: that there are NO mods that are going to be sorely missed. Please don't all message me confessing your love for zero ping, BT, SLV etc until you have read the rest of what I have to say

Smirftsch, not pressing you to do anything, merely pointing out to anyone who thinks that it is laughable needs to look at what you guys are doing and consider the losses versus the gains. Breaking mods: Likely true that there are not many who are willing to re-write, if so then many would be deemed irrelevent and would split the community somewhat with people would still running older version servers. I can understand the frustration, but couldn't be much different than what you guys are doing. Breaking maps: there would be many more people who have a problem with this

It may not be hard to batch-'fix' the maps and mods with a script. But yeah if you were releasing periodic updates I can't see people jumping for joy over dealing with these problems all the time

Finally, whomever author or authors take on this would need to understand, at least as far as I know, that updating the Botpack file would be legal, but advertising it as a new version of UT could cross some legal boundaries. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong

About the drivers, there is a possiblity to get these white-listed the same way the Direct3d 10/11 drivers were and there are what 20 different revisions? There's even the possibility to have them installed remotely on the client from nploader. [Wouldn't be hard to have them self-generate int files, or other method to get them]


@TimTim

You are another who has broken some heavy ground. I am not sure where all this negative feedback you refer to is posted or if it was done privately. I saw players giving real feedback about real bugs on your forums. And there was a small petition to stop you making changes to the way weapons are switched. There's plenty of reasons to complain when you are making changes to classic game elements. These complaints could be seen in a good light as well. It shows the dedication people have for the game, so much that they don't like you changing the amount of damage a weapon does or making decisions that you may have over-looked the importance of. I'm sure like me these people are still very happy with some of the changes. If they have been I don't know, "mean" about it maybe they thought you left them with no choice, personally I loathe a lot of changes and have problems with the way you have described the changes which seem inaccurate (perhaps comparrison typed out hurriedly) but ultimately it is your mod.

They could be angry at you for other reasons as well, as I understand it your site used to host many non-newnet servers, and some outside groups in different regions have merged with your network of servers maybe moreso than before, now running newnet destroying what they used to have. That would annoy me too if not taking it personal attacking newnet and you for something you have no control over

@Mods: sorry for some of the off-topic, anyone can feel free to PM me if want to clear up anything that is too off-topic, mostly that last paragraph

[Hellkeeper]

About "letters being over the checkboxes" (whatever that means), it's explicitly said that pre-existing .ini files must be deleted before launching the game/editor. Many .ini settings have been moved, changed, created or deleted, and launching Unreal with a 226 .ini confuses the game.

As for UT being superior out of the box to Unreal, that may be true, but out of the box they both come with UnrealEd 1.0. UT get the 2.0 only after patching. So getting Unreal and UT to the same level seems to be equally easy : get the game, get the patch (436/451 and 227).

[Feralidragon]

@Smirftsch: Well, so basically I was right on the "Creavion=entire UT community" (indeed short-sighted) view of things back then.
As for the mod breaking stuff, I am aware of it of course (since you were the one who PMed me in these forums back then asking my help in that exact regard, to which I replied and you never told me anything again, no even a "well, sorry but I won't be able to continue with this"...).
But as I said before, and I can't stress this enough, you're obviously free to do what you want and not having to justify yourself to anyone, it's just that you could have handled it better back then treating the people that *you* at least involved as actual people and not everything as a single cell you were mad against, regardless of what happened between you and Creavion, but then again, I hold no hard feelings as usual as a long time has passed (although admittedly some frustration emerged in these days with other people trying to come up with excuses to justify the unjustifiable).

Thanks for confirming and clarifying things for us, and sorry for the wrong assumptions that were made on you and the entire project behalf.


@sana: Come on...

1 - Would you like me to label the entire USP community just because I got mad with a single member of it? No matter how you look at it, it was wrong, and even back then we all had our own problems to deal with (some of them as serious as a illness, if not more serious), some people around here still do, yet during that period up until now I nor those very people ever dropped relations with people over it nor ditched them as a whole group. We all moved on since then though, but please don't bother to come up with excuses like that to try to justify it.

2 - The opinion the UT folks have about the UEd2.1 is solely based on the fact that there's isn't really a UT version of it afaik. All most UT players know are UEd1.x and UEd2.0, and that's why they say that the UT one is better. Sure, there are "tricks" to use the new one for UT, which Creavion himself showed to me and was ecstatic about it, but there wasn't anything solid or "official" of sorts as a "UT version" of it. I am sure if an improved lite version of it (without all the 227-exclusive features, only just the stuff that still works with UT/226) was released, the UT mappers would certainly radically change their opinion on it and maybe, just maybe, look at 227 more attentively and with more positive eyes.
No one is able to know and appreciate a tool that is pretty much secluded to a few communities with just a hand full of truly active members each.


Anyway, I will try to make a small proposal at OldUnreal that could perhaps benefit both Unreal and UT communities, without perhaps that much work for Smirftsch and without violating the UT NDA.

[Torax]

Can somebody explain what is happening please?
And what are the results of discussion?

[Smirftsch]

@Smirftsch: Well, so basically I was right on the "Creavion=entire UT community" (indeed short-sighted) view of things back then.

Nope, you got me still wrong
If at all and if you want to simplify it this way then it was "Creavion=very limited group of people also involved in the project", definitely not the UT community. And for those, including you, I'm sorry, but as said, I had to assume that you have been "informed" about what happened from him, leaving the impression for me having nothing to do anymore here. I never took Creavion for the community itself nor I wanted blame him or wanted others to blame him for sticking it up, although ironically he did exactly what I feared could happen and which was one of the biggest reasons I didn't want to start with it in the first place- exactly those concerns I told him already in the very beginning of our work.
Nevertheless it was, like Sana already pointed out, more a trigger for a chain of events forcing me into this decision, or rather, to revoke the decision I made before.

@billybill
if all people would take it the way you do, there would be probably no problem at all. Map compatibility is usually no problem at all anyway, the drivers could be probably simply whitelisted as well (and yet it seemed to be not worth it for the people I got feedback from), although I have to admit that I have no clue about current anticheat systems in UT. Unfortunately my experiences are showing that the majority doesn't seem to share this opinion about existing mods and compatibility.
The way you see it seems easy enough and don't get me wrong here, you have my full sympathy, I really wish it would be that simple, but for me this all is only the shining theory, I had to learn the hard way that is plain not reality.

[papercoffee]

I'm not convinced. This argument only applies to the most shallow pubbies and new players, who I wasn't really worried about. I'm more concerned about current and experienced modders, mappers, coders etc.

Well the UT-goty version is not garbage from the start ...still not as good as it could be but playable.
If you would stick around here a little bit more often would you know that many people buy the steam variant of UT-goty.
First they only want to play and nothing more ...some start taking interest into mapping and come here to get help, because the Editor isn't working. Those steam-user are the majority nowadays.
The current and experienced modders, mappers, coders... and texture artist are well aware the no old game will work without patching. But that's not the majority.

[Hellkeeper]

@Smirftsch: Well, so basically I was right on the "Creavion=entire UT community" (indeed short-sighted) view of things back then.

No. Creavion was not the embodiement of the UT community. He was the last straw at the end of a long accumulation.

@Torax: people are debating whether Smirftsch was right in focusing on Unreal and not working on UT too. The result is that everyone now pretty much thinks what they already thought about it before.

[ividyon]

1 - Would you like me to label the entire USP community just because I got mad with a single member of it? No matter how you look at it, it was wrong, and even back then we all had our own problems to deal with (some of them as serious as a illness, if not more serious), some people around here still do, yet during that period up until now I nor those very people ever dropped relations with people over it nor ditched them as a whole group. We all moved on since then though, but please don't bother to come up with excuses like that to try to justify it.

Of course not, and there is no comparison to be drawn, as there was no "labeling" anywhere, no matter how hard you try to twist it that way due to old disappointments. It wasn't as much "wrong" as it was "unwise", and that's all there is to it. You're drawing huge, generalizing assumptions and you continue to force yourself into a victim role over "dropped relations" and "ditched people" when, in fact, there was barely a word spoken with you, since Creavion carried the role of the "UT99 PR guy" and Smirftsch completely left communicating with UT99.org to him. I'm going to guess that he promised you the stars from the sky, and then, assumably, discredited and blamed Smirftsch for what went down in order to save face in front of his pals, but... where exactly, in all of this, can you claim the right to feel so incredibly betrayed and forsaken? Sorry to dig this up, but it's obvious that you never really processed the whole thing, considering how you dismiss everything as "excuses" and "justifications".

Also, consider this tiny detail; unless the entire UT99 community was also undergoing cancer treatment during the Creavion incident, as Smirftsch was, I think "your own problems" are absolutely fucking irrelevant in judging his behavior. I didn't feel like I had to mention the details of my "excuses", but it seems subtlety doesn't work here.

Speaking of excuses;

2 - The opinion the UT folks have about the UEd2.1 is solely based on the fact that there's isn't really a UT version of it afaik. All most UT players know are UEd1.x and UEd2.0, and that's why they say that the UT one is better. Sure, there are "tricks" to use the new one for UT, which Creavion himself showed to me and was ecstatic about it, but there wasn't anything solid or "official" of sorts as a "UT version" of it. I am sure if an improved lite version of it (without all the 227-exclusive features, only just the stuff that still works with UT/226) was released, the UT mappers would certainly radically change their opinion on it and maybe, just maybe, look at 227 more attentively and with more positive eyes.
No one is able to know and appreciate a tool that is pretty much secluded to a few communities with just a hand full of truly active members each.

Unreal Gold is probably on sale every 2 weeks on Steam, and I'm finding it hard to imagine that a diehard fan of the Unreal series would not have taken any of the 9999+ Steam & GOG sale opportunities to grab the "Totally Unreal" pack, including U1, for a couple bucks. Assuming and implying that Unreal 1 is somehow a really obscure game compared to UT99, and thus 227 is some sort of obscure, backward hillbilly project, and noone here could POSSIBLY be expected to ~download a game~ and ~install a patch~ is just absurd. Get the game for like $2, download an .exe and apply it - presto Unreal 227. Most members of the Unreal community have both Unreal and UT installed to be able to play Oldskool and 227 campaigns, so I don't know why the same can't be expected of the MP folks with the advent of the converted Botpack.u and IpDrv mod, which basically enable most relevant UT features (and even UT client users in MP) to run on the 227 platform, anyway. It's not rocket science, and there have been numerous opportunities to buy it for like 99c over the course of the past few years.

Just get the damn game, jeez.

Sorry for the change in tone, but the way everything I've said has been dismissed is pretty annoying.

Edith came by and removed a lot of unnecessary, long words.

[KingJosh]

wow look at this topic lol..... it started with Radi making one joke post, and it turned into 6 pages of chaos

[Feralidragon]

@Smirftsch: Ok. Just remember the telephone game: the more channels a message passes through, the more distorted it gets, if you understand what I mean.
In the end, you assumed some stuff, I assumed some stuff, others assumed stuff, and it ended up in a big clusterfuck. I'm glad everything was finally sorted out in that regard.

@sana: You've probably missed the part where I said that I hold no hard feelings for it and even apologized for the assumptions I have made, to not mention that you're transforming this into something that it's not. Furthermore, Smirftsch clarified things so I guess I don't have to say anything by now.
However:

Also, consider this tiny detail; unless the entire UT99 community was also undergoing cancer treatment during the Creavion incident, as Smirftsch was, I think "your own problems" are absolutely fucking irrelevant in judging his behavior. I didn't feel like I had to mention the details of my "excuses", but it seems subtlety doesn't work here.

There are things which can kill a lot quicker than cancer, and I am going to leave it at that and I don't want to bring my own stuff to the table, just keep in mind that Smirftsch was not the only one with problems, whichever kind and severity they may have been.

As for the rest, that doesn't make much sense considering the context of my reply, you're pretty much just venting nonsense and doing the same exact thing you called me out on doing (assuming and generalizing). So I suggest for us to just stop, since you can't keep a calm tone apparently.

[ASLY]

Why Smirftsch is Honorary Member? It's not to need deserve?

[Hellkeeper]

There's a thread for that. I guess it's linked to the fact is not a random nobody and has worked for years to make a better game for everyone.

[TheDane]

Why Smirftsch is Honorary Member? It's not to need deserve?

Not to talk on anybody wearing green, but I see some that in my eyes don't deserve to wear it. And howcome Anthrax isn't wearing the green outfit? Imagine online gaming without his work? Wouldn't it be nice to honor him with the green suit instead of handing it out left and right? IMO it just looks like a ..... Naa.. will not go there..... I just dont see the red line connecting those already in green, thats all......

[Red_Fist]

"Is this now the long expected and already missed "uh I opened it once and although I am not willing to really check why things are the way they are I closed it again and everything is crap" comment?"

No the letters go over the top of the checkbox dropdowns as in like a screen-or window is not resizing for a font.
Like when you see a messed up webpage and the letters go over the top of the pictures type of thing.

You all can have your opinions and such, but I have enough to do with the old UT99 format. But like I said I have the Gold 227i to check out new maps from other people.

As for that other guy, being a-LOT bit hypocritical considering the way he god admins his forum around, then does the exact thing here he complains about there, sheesh, I stopped posting at that place.

"Your comments about how 227's editor and menu are "old" have discredited your opinions, so... please, just be more careful about silly statements like that. I would not be surprised about 227's bad reputation if this kind of uneducated statements are taken at face value."
Drama ? LoL thought you where against that.

anyway
Can you make MH maps in 227 ?
Can we play through the pile of levels that where made in oldskool ?
Also the thing to make it better is that I had these textures that are the same from each but don't work in UT. That would be a big help between versions. I had a 227 map but the textures where all scrambled in UT texture browser.