new UED 2.2 !

[Torax]

And seriously, UT can be enhanced without even working on UT itself, just adapt the 227 engine to have the capability to load UT's content, just like UT can load Unreal stuff.

I had such idea, wrote about it somewhere here or at oldunreal forums (can't remember exactly but maybe discussed that with Smirftsch few months ago).
This can be realy the way.

For now i see that UT and Unreal like two separated kingdoms. Friendly to each other, but..still separated.
Can someone answer - why so? The cause is in games itself, their possibilities? I dont think so..
Why we can't unite our forces for one of best games ever made, to make it even better? We are united by it, no matter this is UT or Unreal. Thanks to this game, we know each other, no matter that mostly we will never see each other in real life. With it we've found hundreds of friends in all over the world, no matter how old are you. I'm 22, that guy is 46, other guy is 19. We spent hours getting fun in insane battles. Many of us learned a lot with this game - someone learned C++, someone become a great modeller or texture artist. I dont claim, i just guess..
I remember time, when i was mostly an Unreal player, people who created mods made script sources hidden, to not give any chance to steal them, and there were not such help and good relationship between modders as now.
But those times are gone.

I think this game is worth to be born again.
I dont care that it is more than 10 years old. I dont care that there are a lot of modern games which can provide even more possibilities. I dont care on any other reason, which somebody will propose me to stop playing UT and/or Unreal.
This is the game of the Millenium. Neither more nor less.

[ividyon]

So, independently of what went on between him and Creavion, the fact remains that he did drop it before he really started into it. He filled a few people with hopes, and dropped them afterwards, as there were some more people involved than Creavion by then and he knew it. So if Creavion was the reason he dropped it, then it means that he labeled *us* as "Creavion" as well, as the entire UT community along with it, which wasn't nice imho.

The thing is that it can't be viewed independently. The UT community took offense at the fact that problems with Creavion were enough to drive Smirf away from UT as a whole, but for a man already vulnerable to the stress and drama generated in a hobby, of which he already has enough in his own community, and especially a man drained by illness at the same time, I think it's a perfectly understandable decision. When you have a fallout with a close, trusted player like that, it's bound to open your eyes to what conflicts may come from facing an entire 2nd community with its own opponents and purists. It's not really to do with the UT community in particular, but rather with communities in general.

And all of this is just the "mental strain" part of the operation; something he could not put up with. It's the main reason out of many, including the actual effort of creating the patch and the striking legal issues (which were already outlined above).

It's wrong to say that Creavion or Smirftsch's opinion about the UT community were "the reason" this happened; instead, the argument was simply a catalyst in making Smirf realize he had enough stress on his hands as is. That's why I hope this whole thing can be viewed as what it is - an unfortunate incident that didn't go well for anyone - rather than the UT community being "dropped" and forsaken.

And as for the 50/50, how many exactly are those 50/50? Because the Unreal population is not comparable to the UT one in terms of numbers even nowadays (which says a lot considering that UT doesn't have that many people around anymore), so that assessment doesn't really say anything imho. Of course, there are always going to be people who won't like it, but then again, the like-ability of a patch or a whole new platform comes with what people actually do with it in the end or what it already comes with.
There are always going to be "purists", but then again U227 wasn't thought out to be used by said "purists" anyway, otherwise it wouldn't bring the new stuff it brought, or am I wrong?

A friend's comment on this problem: Back when the switch from U1 to UT Oldskool mapping (for SP maps) was made, the community was a lot more active and the "purists" who weren't ready to embrace new tech were a minority. Now, that the numbers have dwindled, the percentage of "purists" has risen, since it takes that kind of "fierce" dedication to stick with an ancient game like this. I think that's a pretty logical explanation for why 227 has faced such a poor reception initially, although we have no real numbers on likes/dislikes.

Nowadays, however, I think all genuine concerns with 227 have long been ironed out, the growing pains are over, all features that people complained about (new lighting/new AI breaking existing maps etc.) have been made largely optional or gotten fixed. I think it's up to the communities to explore and learn about the new platform and its possibilities. We can't expect Smirf to do PR manager work in addition to all the work he's already doing on 227 with his team. I was hoping for a more open approach from everyone, and more spreading the word/introducing the patch to others.

I never believed a word of what was written, mainly because I'm actually aware of how some things work.
Since everyone's giving their opinions, I'll do so myself:

- How does someone in his right mind bash Smirftsch for what's he's done on Unreal?
It's a common issue with immature community members in contact with developers, to the developer: "deal with it" and to the brat: "watch me do stuff you don't like", there's countless times where it's better to simply disregard suggestions/opinions from the community when they are unreasonable, stupid or unbalanced (gameplay-wise) and it's on the developer not to lose motivation over loudest, lowest common denominator criticizing your work.
Only abandon a project if the problem involves disagreement with someone with actual authority, or a high degree of trust being broken with other key members.

- About the patch on UT.
Sometimes it's just better to admit one has little motivation to work on something rather than keep everyone in the limbo by not saying a thing over the years.
And seriously, UT can be enhanced without even working on UT itself, just adapt the 227 engine to have the capability to load UT's content, just like UT can load Unreal stuff.


I've constantly had to deal with biased retards sh***ing opinions left and right and never broke, and when trust was broken I made a good point by not being exclusive to a certain party and allowing anyone to use the stuff I was making and even helping them setup their servers with them on, so I think there was major bull***t on the whole UT patch thing on all sides (with the biggest of them all from Ep*c, which in fact has a lot to learn from V*lve when it comes to caring about what they created, and killed with their own hands).

Sure, but that's just how you'd approach the problem. Not everyone handles stress and rudeness the same way, as not everyone is cut out for public relations. Add serious illness into the mix, and there's just no way one should think it's "bullshit" or "weak" to back off from the prospect of facing an entire new player base of potential insults, complaints and immature bitching. (Again, this isn't a statement about you guys; I'm sure you'll agree all communities have their black sheep, and a project like 227 would not go without controversy, since it didn't in the Unreal userbase, either.) I do not think it is right or fair to expect everybody to act as you would have, as everyone has their own unique circumstances.

I'm aware that Smirftsch's lack of communication and involvement after the incident has led to some grim views/negative opinions here, but I hope that - even though it's been years now and everyone's long over the problem, of course - we can put aside any lingering notions of feeling betrayed or otherwise. Let's all be friends! Because we could use more awesome mappers to make single-player maps. And I finally want to see some badass pro mappers use the fancy emitters, distance fog, static meshes, alpha transparency channel textures and other 227 goodies

[Hellkeeper]

And seriously, UT can be enhanced without even working on UT itself, just adapt the 227 engine to have the capability to load UT's content, just like UT can load Unreal stuff.

I had such idea, wrote about it somewhere here or at oldunreal forums (can't remember exactly but maybe discussed that with Smirftsch few months ago).
This can be realy the way.

For now i see that UT and Unreal like two separated kingdoms. Friendly to each other, but..still separated.
Can someone answer - why so? The cause is in games itself, their possibilities? I dont think so..
Why we can't unite our forces for one of best games ever made, to make it even better? We are united by it, no matter this is UT or Unreal. Thanks to this game, we know each other, no matter that mostly we will never see each other in real life. With it we've found hundreds of friends in all over the world, no matter how old are you. I'm 22, that guy is 46, other guy is 19. We spent hours getting fun in insane battles. Many of us learned a lot with this game - someone learned C++, someone become a great modeller or texture artist. I dont claim, i just guess..
I remember time, when i was mostly an Unreal player, people who created mods made script sources hidden, to not give any chance to steal them, and there were not such help and good relationship between modders as now.
But those times are gone.

I think this game is worth to be born again.
I dont care that it is more than 10 years old. I dont care that there are a lot of modern games which can provide even more possibilities. I dont care on any other reason, which somebody will propose me to stop playing UT and/or Unreal.
This is the game of the Millenium. Neither more nor less.

I agree completely. Unreal and UT look like two brothers. Unreal is the old hippy one in his own world, with tons of cool stuff but kinda on its own, while UT is the respectable guy with an actual job.

I don't know if it's possible to load UT stuff in Unreal without a lot of in-depth work. There has been a lot of progress in bringing these two games together with dots's IpDrv modification that allows UT clients to join Unreal 227 games, but it's still a long shot before the two games are basically the same. Your two kingdoms are separated because there's a big chasm between them and it's hard to build that bridge. Let's hope we'll have it someday.

But I'm getting mighty nostalgic these days, I may be spouting lyric nonsense.

[Torax]

I don't know if it's possible to load UT stuff in Unreal without a lot of in-depth work.

If you mean things from default UT stuff (BotPack) - Dot's did nearly a half of a work. Ut weapons, inventory, relics - he ported all of this long time ago. I'm currently working with his ports to make them better fit with Unreal 227, i mean implementing of particle systems and so, in cause that as Shivaxi told, noone did this yet and in cause i need to create core packages with ready effects for my remodelling project, which i want also port to Unreal 227.
Other stuff (playermodels and so) can be ported without problems.

Maps...hmmm... I heard about stuff that can convert maps from one game to another, so it is also possible. Question is mostly in compatibility.

In other side, if to talk about custom conversions (Nali Weapons 3) and security mods.. Yeah, there's a real bunch of work. But if we start it - we'll find enough of ppl to help with this. As i think.

[Hellkeeper]

If you mean things from default UT stuff (BotPack) - Dot's did nearly a half of a work. Ut weapons, inventory, relics - he ported all of this long time ago.

I know that: maps, characters and the entire botpack. But that still needs to be converted. I'm talking about a utopian situation where the two games would be perfectly compatible, and files could be passed from one to the other without any work needed. Right now, there is always the need for a conversion in the UT>Unreal sense.
Basically, Unreal/UT are like UT2003/2004 : it's either a one way street, or you have to manually convert UT2004 content for UT2003. In a perfect world, you'd make a single file with UT, open it with Unreal, and then launch a server where anyone could join.

Maps...hmmm... I heard about stuff that can convert maps from one game to another, so it is also possible. Question is mostly in compatibility.

I have some around there : they're called humans

[Torax]

I know that: maps, characters and the entire botpack. But that still needs to be converted. I'm talking about a utopian situation where the two games would be perfectly compatible, and files could be passed from one to the other without any work needed. Right now, there is always the need for a conversion in the UT>Unreal sense.
Basically, Unreal/UT are like UT2003/2004 : it's either a one way street, or you have to manually convert UT2004 content for UT2003. In a perfect world, you'd make a single file with UT, open it with Unreal, and then launch a server where anyone could join.

I've got your idea.

Such like it was before the 227 patch - everything you made in Unreal was possible to put and launch in UT.

But now its a trouble.
It is a work for advanced C++ coders as i guess - comparing native C++ libraries of UT and Unreal and changing stuff that needs to be changed, to use UT content in Unreal directly, without any limitations.
Maybe try to propose this idea to Smirt? I think this is more real than ask him to make patch for UT.. And this will really decrease amount of conversions and imports, if it will be possible to use "drag'n'drop" principle.

[Red_Fist]

The big draw for me is UT since it has all the pawns, and game-types, better editor, better menu, and since we also have oldskool, why bother with Unreal at all.

I have Unreal gold 227 only for the reason that we have 227 and check out new mappage, otherwise I pretty much open just the UT editor, and play coop, MH, don't play DM like I used to.

And it's a real shame Unreal2 didn't happen because you can do fantastic things ordering the pawns around, it is very cool.

[Hellkeeper]

Maybe try to propose this idea to Smirt?

I personally don't care enough to suggest he starts something which I imagine to be huge. I'm just glad to do my little thing in my own corner of the Unreal universe. Let people who are more involved than me petition him.

And it's a real shame Unreal2 didn't happen because you can do fantastic things ordering the pawns around, it is very cool.

Yeah, too bad Unreal 2 never existed.
NEVER.

[ividyon]

The big draw for me is UT since it has all the pawns, and game-types, better editor, better menu, and since we also have oldskool, why bother with Unreal at all.

• You can set the "Console" class in 227 advanced properties to "UMenu" and you will have the UT/Unreal Gold menu.
• 227 comes with UnrealEd 2.1, which beats UT's UnrealEd 2 by an incredible margin and features a MASSIVE number of new features and improvements.
• Oldskool is not an argument for Unreal Tournament, since it's simply a hacky solution to introduce the features to UT that Unreal always had, except buggier and worse.

I'm seriously disappointed people know little enough about 227 to say UT still has a better editor and menu...

[Red_Fist]

"Oldskool is not an argument for Unreal Tournament, since it's simply a hacky solution to introduce the features to UT that Unreal always had, except buggier and worse."

but it made things much better, allowed many more maps to be made, and it works.

I know all about 227 it's just that if I make some map I want it to be played, maybe more so in the UT DM days for mapping.
I also don't want mismatches.
Unreal is old, UT is new and with oldskool it pretty much turned Unreal into a useless CD.

Now as 227 progresses in time it gives me something to look forward to, and I have both installs, won't make any maps for it though.

[Higor]

I'm seriously disappointed people know little enough about 227 to say UT still has a better editor and menu...

Which is why those that are actually aware REALLY want UT to be patched.
Something I did with it...

[papercoffee]

I'm seriously disappointed people know little enough about 227 to say UT still has a better editor and menu...

That's because your advertisement department is a little bit too much laid-back.

The main reason why UT might be still more popular is ...
When I buy UT-goty or take the UT demo + the NoDelta patch can I play right away on a server. Everything looks ok And I can use/make better stuff in Ued2 than in Ued1.
Then comes the patching ...and everything gets even better. additional maps and models, fixes ...

When I buy Unreal do I get an outdated engine (even more outdated than UT) ...nearly no server for a quick match.
Maybe a great story ...but
The Editor is ok-ish... but
Only when you start patching will this game rise and be superior compared to UT.

I hope you get what I want to say.
UT is not more popular because it is still better than Unreal ... but it has better starting conditions.

Unreal is old, UT is new...

...new ...ok that was a good one.

[Red_Fist]

I just fired up the 227i editor.

Why are the letters over the top of the checkboxes while looking at actor properties ? makes it look like a confusing mess.
And why won't the viewports stay the way I set them, I had to edit the unrealed.ini to make it work. Not sure if regular unreal did that.

[ividyon]

I just fired up the 227i editor.

Why are the letters over the top of the checkboxes while looking at actor properties ? makes it look like a confusing mess.
And why won't the viewports stay the way I set them, I had to edit the unrealed.ini to make it work. Not sure if regular unreal did that.

"Letters over the top of the checkboxes while looking at actor properties"? What checkboxes?
And I haven't heard of anybody have any viewport issues; it's literally the same editor as Unreal Tournament's, except with refinements and new features. Any issues with basic functionality like this would be the same in the original UT editor.

Your comments about how 227's editor and menu are "old" have discredited your opinions, so... please, just be more careful about silly statements like that. I would not be surprised about 227's bad reputation if this kind of uneducated statements are taken at face value.

Could you be redeye on the UnrealSP.org forums? If so, that would explain a lot...

That's because your advertisement department is a little bit too much laid-back.

You silly goose. It's precisely because there's no "ads department" that I'm trying to clear things up about the 227 project, despite not being a team member or even involved in any way, besides talking to Smirftsch every couple months. I'm just a random guy who loves the new features and effort that went into it, and really wants the talented modders of the UT99 community to check it out, so that I can enjoy what can be achieved with all the new additions + some of your talent.

The main reason why UT might be still more popular is ...
When I buy UT-goty or take the UT demo + the NoDelta patch can I play right away on a server. Everything looks ok And I can use/make better stuff in Ued2 than in Ued1.
Then comes the patching ...and everything gets even better. additional maps and models, fixes ...

When I buy Unreal do I get an outdated engine (even more outdated than UT) ...nearly no server for a quick match.
Maybe a great story ...but
The Editor is ok-ish... but
Only when you start patching will this game rise and be superior compared to UT.

I hope you get what I want to say.
UT is not more popular because it is still better than Unreal ... but it has better starting conditions.

I'm not convinced. This argument only applies to the most shallow pubbies and new players, who I wasn't really worried about. I'm more concerned about current and experienced modders, mappers, coders etc. transitioning back from UT to U1... and anyone who's been playing PC games for a while should know that ANY old game should be outfitted with patches and fixes before playing. UT is similarly garbage without any patches, unless you love playing with Software rendering and bugs. What's the big difference to Unreal 1 here?

Something I did with it...
<snip>

Awwww yeah baby, that's what I'm talking about. Whatever that is, finish and release it!

[Smirftsch]

the fact remains that he did drop it before he really started into it.

I don't want to go into much detail since I don't want dig into an old story, but basically when the best version of U227 was released (with particles, static meshes, and other extremely good stuff), Creavion was apparently told from Smirftsch directly that the same things could be implemented in UT as well, and that he was going to do so (as the engines are very very similar to each other, and well, why not?).

There is a lot more I could quote and although I very much understand where this impression is coming from, I want to say some words about it. Sana and Hellkeeper already explained my reaction and and my reasons, probably better than I could have done, back then after this happened I felt no need anymore to justify myself to anyone here, I took Creavions point of view as the general opinion here, maybe this was a bit shortsighted, but that's the way it was- or is. It wasn't my intention to leave other, "uninvolved" people disappointed behind, although the number of people knowing about the plans should have been limited to a handful of persons at max.

Yet some "technical" view about it
As some of you know, already Unreal 226 was "a rip out of UT", explaining the plenty of bugs in this version, especially in the replication system. Reason for this is, that despite all commonalities UT and Unreal share, a lot of changes have been made in UT. Maybe biggest obvious internal change was skeletal mesh and decal system, not that obvious but very appreciated the different and improved replication system. That alone is rather easy to overview.
The big issues actually really start with UScript (and of course native functions they depend on), because aside the obviously missing Botpack in Unreal there have been a lot of script changes. Where is the problem you may ask? Here is the thing most people don't consider: In a perfect world I'd do it like Epic, make a Botpack, modify the replication system a bit to really fit again and release it as UT470. Little unimportant downside of this would be that probably no mod will be running anymore, but who cares! Let the UT community write some new! - ok sarcasm aside, you get the point.
While changes in Core are rather easy and a quick task, changes in Engine have to be done always in consideration to keep current mod compatibility, if possible to 100%. That 100% ain't possible should be clear I hope, even although I can't count the additional hours we spent in 227 to keep compatibility, yet I can't also count the number of complains. And that although almost everything new is absolutely optional, you can even use UED2.1 and create 226 compatible maps out of the box as long you don't use 227 features (well, I know that's theory because it requires the mapper to be aware about any changes and who really ever read the releasenotes?!?).
Thing is, alone these Engine changes are a very ingrate and extremely time consuming task if not wanting to break anything instantly and to answer straightly to "the fact remains that he did drop it before he really started into it. " - you had and you have no clue at all how much time I already invested when this happened, that's the same thing Creavion never understood and one of the major things pissing me off when he called me a liar (such a comment still makes me upset even today).
Ironically the rest of the system, like fire, render or editor (including UED2.1) are again "easy going", but even that requires to be extremely careful with changes and hours of testing and fixing the compatibility again and again and again. Not only work for the coder, but also the testers and I know how hard it can be to get useful feedback, Creavion was the very best tester I ever had.

Additionally it always means complains in any case, because certain fixes require changes to some degree, compatibility can't be kept to 100% and I've noticed already the reluctance of the people ONLY to update their UT to newer OpenAL or swFmod just because they are afraid about breaking some anticheat system which has to be updated again (which is why I dropped more or less making new versions for UT).
Aside this, some of these anticheats or probably a big number of random mods can't be updated anymore because the modder is long gone, the code obfuscated and no one willing or able to write a new version of it. That's a lot of pain, also for the community. I went through this all already in 227 and although I support now 227 for YEARS, YEARS LONGER than Epic ever supported their patch versions I still get these complains now and then, the kind of "but this worked in Unreal 224, now its broken, fixitfixitfixit". I think people should think first about what a new patch means and maybe then a couple of them would already vote against it.

That being said, I personally think Shadow does hell of a good job with his SDK.

I just fired up the 227i editor.

Why are the letters over the top of the checkboxes while looking at actor properties ? makes it look like a confusing mess.
And why won't the viewports stay the way I set them, I had to edit the unrealed.ini to make it work. Not sure if regular unreal did that.

Is this now the long expected and already missed "uh I opened it once and although I am not willing to really check why things are the way they are I closed it again and everything is crap" comment?