Botpathing request thread

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R3plicant
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Re: Botpathing request thread

Post by R3plicant »

sektor2111 wrote:
R3plicant wrote:Hold on a cotton pickin' minute lol :lol:,.. isn't v436 AFTER v227?
Cough, Unreal Tournament is not Unreal. Unreal Tournament was patched to 451b around 2004 and UNREAL was patched around 2012-2013 if I'm not mistaking. The reality... Unreal227 has new assets which if by chance are called into UT in a bad moment will crash game due to null content accessed so think twice.
Aside info: XC_PathBuilder Editor Add-on by Higor for UT99 is very helpful to "order" connections between nodes as you like, you can even restrict linking range preventing useless bad links by definition of "ScanRange" parameter from builder - ALL stuff created (special path) is compatible with Plain UT. Not that last option you can use anytime bOneWayPath if you have a special situation. You don't need any 227 if your geometry is OK, map can be build and pathed properly with normal Editor from Unreal Tournament.
Xc_PathBuilder is getting over default restrictive build letting you to deal with special situations. If you need evidences, you can test a bit that SkaarjTower Map which Higor has adjusted (map has BSP problems no worries) and see some "crazy" type jump performed by Bot. In other cases with default Editor you can fool Engine to do what you want > New Nodes, Combos, Scout adjusting, etc...
Another Hint:
Scout didn't fit - message is proving that some InventorySpot Marker could not be added for certain Inventory in map - Bot won't see it unless is closer to that spot ( except some MBot ). This happens when Inventory is located in a small spot where Fat-Ass Scout having 50×50 collision won't ever move for signing agreement for InventorySpot, but default Bot is not that big - by using a "normal" Scout, your map will have spots completed properly, there are months since I saw that message.
Else if your map is an "Insta" I mean an empty thing, then with all apology, say a pray or something :lol2: . Bot is roaming through map based on Inventories not based on a "Nothing-To-See", unless your Bot is a serial killer scanning constantly for victims rather than for Items, default Bot is addicted to items and 1on1 matches as a default habit - good luck then with no Inventories and Bot support...

For cleaning map from "history" type reachspecs data you don't need any U227 U4000 or U12012321 Editor, simple as that. My friendly advice is to stay away from that if you don't map for U227 game.
- Load map in Editor and Use Console;
- By any chance Edy will respond at command PATHS UNDEFINE happily destroying Paths and InventorySpots;
- Save Map and CLOSE EDITOR;
- Open Editor and Map;
- Press RebuildAIPaths button or input command PATHS DEFINE - for these commands I have buttons defined, I'm not writing commands.
See what you get... I'll bet you'll gain InventorySpot0 in map (if exist - if not, good night, Mr. Bot). Less number of ReachSpecs are developed if ScanRange is smaller - POSSIBLE in XC_PathBuilder.
Next Hint-problem:
If your map is really big then you can forget Bot Pathing - no kidding - if you want to figure why I'm saying this you can take in account map MH-GardenOfDeath which for Player is AWESOME but for DevPath from Engine is GARBAGE at full power. Engine doesn't even show a "Reachable" actor there, or you can take in account some CTF map which EvilGrins has asked for Bot Support (old map) where Bot was working by only removing large zones from map, all PathNodes there have simply USELESS getting over processing cycles which Engine uses for DevPath :thudown: . Like Polge said: When Pawn is entering the Paths-Network this is VERY EXPENSIVE for Engine.
This morning while installing Unreal and the patch for it, I pretty much got that Unreal [Gold] and Unreal Tournament are two different games. Red Fist, sorry, but I've decided that for my sanity, it'd be best if my map didn't have bot-pathing. There are just too many difficult and troubling obstacles to cross and ones which may end up making the map unplayable, (primarily but not solely heavy CPU usage concerns). After all the hard work I've put in to the map, the LAST thing I want to do is make it unplayable (on dedicated servers I mean) by some awkward or hard-to-solve issue that wouldn't show itself in the editor.

The map will be released soon, but first it needs a solo-spot on a temporary server to test it. if I can get a super-fast redirect set up for it, I'll suffer the cost of running my PC 24/7 for a few days to get it tested. I may out up a post to advertise said server just and only for testing purposes - but feedback on it would be welcome nonetheless by those who care to join to test it. :)

I'll drop you a mention Red Fist for your help with the pathing today, thanks. :)
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papercoffee
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Re: Botpathing request thread

Post by papercoffee »

R3plicant wrote: Edit 5. However, if I open the map in UnrealEd 2.0 the excessively high reach-specs is still well over 4000. I have no idea why it's such a pervasive problem. :(
You don't have to make a full rebuild just a path-rebuild.
And as sektor2111 said don't use any other stuff which isn't also available in UEd2.0, you might make your map unplayable for UT.
So for the huge reach spec in UEd2.0 ...if you have rebuild the path in UEd2.1 don't touch this any more in UEd2.0. If you rebuild the path in UEd2.0 again the old mechanism will be used and you end up with more reach specs again.

Open the Map in UEd2.1 and activate "show path" after a path-rebuild you'll see that the path network is much more cleaner.
I think the path reach spec is higher in UEd2.0 because that path-builder connects every possible connection between path-nodes, which are not obstructed by BSP.
In Ued2.1 it seems to limit the range of that connections.
sektor2111 wrote: PATHS UNDEFINE happily destroying Paths and InventorySpots
Oh that's neat ...I will test this.
R3plicant wrote:Red Fist, sorry, but I've decided that for my sanity, it'd be best if my map didn't have bot-pathing. There are just too many difficult and troubling obstacles to cross and ones which may end up making the map unplayable, (primarily but not solely heavy CPU usage concerns). After all the hard work I've put in to the map, the LAST thing I want to do is make it unplayable (on dedicated servers I mean) by some awkward or hard-to-solve issue that wouldn't show itself in the editor.
Bullshit. just add some health pick-ups and let the mods handle the turning-off of these. The pick-up might be gone in insta but the inventory spot should still work.
Last edited by papercoffee on Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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sektor2111
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Re: Botpathing request thread

Post by sektor2111 »

papercoffee wrote:Bullshit. just add some health pick-ups and let the mods handle the turning-off of these. The pick-up might be gone in insta but the inventory spot should still work.
Extremely agree here, I've done a mutator for another Enhanced Insta Mutator (allow damn Skaarj to use weapon... you zero skill lolzers), and this mutator will cause appearance of some... hidden goals... making Bot to roam well even in Insta games, a chaotic roaming like they are looking for victims rather than messing up in spots. So far I'm okay to have InventorySpot actors available, because... I need them after all, and you don't pay for items. Right ? You can add them in Editor without buying them... So you should not mess up by having NONE items just because you have a sudden addiction for Insta. But... of course it's your map and you can do what you think. If is a good looking one and has a good render performance, the rest of paths and hacks are subject for NavAdder - that thing allows me to have a joy even in those previously empty cubes :D .
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Re: Botpathing request thread

Post by Higor »

What the hell.
I'd be glad if ppl stopped talking without knowing what the hell they're talking about.

If nobody's taking the map during the weekend I may do it myself.
Please provide a download link.

PD: Added to requests for quick finding.
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Re: Botpathing request thread

Post by papercoffee »

Higor wrote:What the hell.
I'd be glad if ppl stopped talking without knowing what the hell they're talking about.
I think you mean me.
I want to learn ...where was I wrong?
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sektor2111
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Re: Botpathing request thread

Post by sektor2111 »

Higor wrote:If nobody's taking the map during the weekend I may do it myself.
Please provide a download link.
I was about to do paths here too, but I also don't see any link so I've recommended some stunts for Editing it by original author if sharing it is forbidden or such.
No problem, I can wait whatever release and then I'll script something at the right time. If a map is dedicated for Insta, this means other normal DM is not allowed here ? Why ?
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Re: Botpathing request thread

Post by sektor2111 »

I saw map in test server ignited.
Conclusions:
- being a CTF map Bot would work without too many inventories because of CTF game directives - if DevPath will work in this Engine lagger;
- map might be turned into a TDM because it's way too open - jesters are killing each-other rather than taking Flag;
- map lags somehow old machines so 8 such players connected are just messing up the game - it's a server load as well;
- If I'll buy another machine definitely I'll play other modern stuff not UT'99;
- in servers with zooming allowed probably CTF game won't even exist being a sniping fest;
To summarize the question: Worth 80MB+ of Download ?
For me personally no. I have already HDD almost full of apk and zip things and... others. - I purged all Cache content and I won't spent time downloading similar stuff.

Higor, feel free to proceed at doing Bot Support if you have fun here. I'm not interested to participate at this task. Maybe at another UT'99 like map: Zoned well, Rooms/Zones done in PlayerCanSeeMe range (1600 UU), obstructions, etc.
Now excuse me but I have to work at my cubed demo map...
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Re: Botpathing request thread

Post by Higor »

80MB??!?
I think I'll pass.

Lol jk, but it'll take a bit longer.
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Re: Botpathing request thread

Post by Red_Fist »

If you guys would do the fix map new thread stuff that has no stuff, Shrimps thread for ultimate data preservation, and mapping, and Leo, I really don't see what the hold up of the fix maps Jack's thread is.

Wrong thread but , UT99 has potential power to make money in some weird nostalgic way.

AND this thread for bot pathing.
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Re: Botpathing request thread

Post by sektor2111 »

Red_Fist wrote: I really don't see what the hold up of the fix maps Jack's thread is.
I have a bit of HDD space mainly for that thing but I see that nothing happens, okay, I'll discard taking in account such random threads.
Else for Bot Pathing - I'll take in account MAPS for UE1 and nothing else named UNR and called maps, that simple. If we don't have resources to get over stupid hard-coded values, then we can stay inside UE1 and guaranteed won't explode anything.
You can take in account the rest of functions which WEREN'T EVER INTENDED for High ranges - PlayerCanSeeMe() - Always is FALSE over 1600 UU - and geniuses saying that I'm talking dumb things feel free to log/broadcast some tests before making useless noise. I think at least for COOP MH games this might be important but it's not my problem if goal is doing only wrecks not maps.
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Re: Botpathing request thread

Post by Aldebaran »

DM-BedroomPunkysSnipeHuntD is a fun sniper map, I played it very often long time ago. Recently I noticed that bots in the game are permanently falling to death, the gametype changes then in that way: the one with the most suicides win the game ;-)
Playing this one with bots does not makes sense - at this state they should be removed completely, so my suggestion would be to fix that. Perhaps it is not easy, there are too many teleporters and spawn points at risky places on top of tables, cupboards and doors. I don't know a lot about bot-pathing so perhaps it is still doable.

Download here:
https://unrealarchive.org/maps/unreal-t ... 94c01.html
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sektor2111
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Re: Botpathing request thread

Post by sektor2111 »

Aldebaran wrote:Playing this one with bots does not makes sense - at this state they should be removed completely, so my suggestion would be to fix that.
Perhaps you want Bots to stop hunting :lol: ... here geometry doesn't make sense. First of all in the cases when Bot cannot track enemy using paths and/or has a direct sight to enemy, will attempt a direct hunting movement ignoring routes or "heights". High platforms in such cases will cause Bot to fall harder and even dying - SkaarjTower demonstrates that Bot can head to Sliths in water and later getting lost out of paths as long as was charging to enemy. In similar cases will attempt the same hunt but... because of these heights it takes damage. In the most of those areas some teleporters can help but... that's up on Bot decisions if enemy is visible, I could see Bots falling to death even in CTF-Face...

I'll take a tour here... Probably a lot of nodes here are... useless without any logic. If their hunting problem cannot be tuned a lot, at least paths can be way better optimized. Take a look here...
[attachment=1]useless_load.PNG[/attachment]
The one in the red circle has no purpose. The rest... are way too many... Perhaps worth a check to "devpath" and then reducing this insanity.

Edit: Some version with less nodes and more covered areas + sniping spot.
[attachment=0]DM-BedroomPunkysSnipeHuntD_0Pt.7z[/attachment]

To check IF:
- paths are too few;
- paths are too many;
- are missing very important spots;
- it needs multiple Paths networks separate each-other for more camping and adding some sniping habits;
- are necessary more jumpers for bad angled paths;
- anything else forgotten has to be added.
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Aldebaran
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Re: Botpathing request thread

Post by Aldebaran »

Thank you sektor2111 for your help. The bots behave really not bad in general in this map, but they still jump directly into death at some places. Do not forget: some bots falling to death because they were shooten by others, these bots don't count...

I have observed these two places at main issues (perhaps the nearby teleporters should be placed elsewhere or a wall like thing can stop them for jumping without reason?):
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Re: Botpathing request thread

Post by Red_Fist »

My first map had this problem they would jump off high pillars 3 that has a teleporter on each back to a center pole. (DM-3pole)

I got no answers then or now, THEN we got UT2004, and the bots did the exact same thing after remaking the map.

I tried fear spots but I didn't know you had to turn them on, and the bots jump with intent , just jump off, :loool:
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Re: Botpathing request thread

Post by papercoffee »

Bots always want something ...and if that thing they want are deep down they can't consider the risk and just jump.
There should be an mutator for this. Something like risk calculation for bots.

Bot want - (bot health - (Z-axis distance + fall damage) = too risky ) = Do not want

:mrgreen: