DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by Swanky » Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:00 am

Yes, due to its age, most stuff has been lost. DavidM, unrealed.info... even the old unreal wiki contains stuff mostly used for unrealed 3.0. Hey, when UT was released most people still went online by modem so I think the game has had an exceptionally long life cycle. Personally, I also think it's not worth the hassle of investing a week or two making an indepth tutorial on how the editor works and what the game's limitations are - if anything, a more universal approach to making maps in general might be a better idea given how sloppy a lot of today's maps feel, and not just for UT. Also, UE is pretty stable unless you force vertex on vertex on the same brush and there's better people who still know a lot more about engine limitations than I do - Revelation, Feralidragon (especially coding wise) for example.

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by Iacobus » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:39 am

Swanky wrote:Yes, due to its age, most stuff has been lost. DavidM, unrealed.info... even the old unreal wiki contains stuff mostly used for unrealed 3.0.
Internet content doesn't age, it gets forgotten. The fact these essensial docs weren't preserved is an symptom of what I'm addressing here. The UT community has always been more code oriented and never gave
attention to mapping in general, that has always relied on a handful of people who learned by themselves. Lots of mods, not many good maps to play on them.
Swanky wrote:Hey, when UT was released most people still went online by modem so I think the game has had an exceptionally long life cycle.
Ut has been my favorite game since 2002, I know most of it and have been following from a distance for over a decade. The had part of the sentence that bothers me, since Doom and the Quake series were some of the games
I sourced material from, and they're still getting quality content from the community from time to time, not to mention major overhauls on the engine. UT stil get a few too, it just doesn't get the same level of cherishing and appreciation
and it's not from today. I don't think the maplists up on servers today have changed much from what it used to be.

Swanky wrote:Personally, I also think it's not worth the hassle of investing a week or two making an indepth tutorial on how the editor works and what the game's limitations are -if anything, a more universal approach to making maps
in general might be a better idea given how sloppy a lot of today's maps feel, and not just for UT.
Yes, that's why I said level design, more specifically layouts and how they affect gameplay. That wasn't a resquest btw! I'm sure it would be a good read, but it was more of an invinting to talk about the subject. I also think there isn't much to be done at this point.
Swanky wrote:Also, UE is pretty stable unless you force vertex on vertex on the same brush and there's better people who still know a lot more about engine limitations than I do - Revelation, Feralidragon (especially coding wise) for example.
Kwoning how to brush comes with time and practice, I was reffering to the very little control over BSP cuts and how it effects building and rendering and the sloppy occlusion calculations leading to flickering textures that you see in pretty much every map that wasn't thoughtfully and extensively checked and reshaped.

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by Swanky » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:21 am

The UT community has a pretty great archive right now actually. Pretty much everything has been preserved. Issue is sifting through all those files to actually find the good ones. And with regular mapping contests I think UT also gets a good amount of maps even to this day. And I think that back in 2005 when we originally released the FoT mappacks UT was really healthy for its age. Quake 3 had been on a slow decline mapping wise (can't think of that many good community maps for Q3 in general) and CS was played on mainly the same maps for the past two decades or so. So online map rotation isn't that good an indicator on how many good maps are actually being made. Servers usually load what is most fun. With exceptions, of course. :)

A talk on layouting may or may not be in the works. I do have a layout that I will not be able to finish, it seems, due to drastic changes to my work / lifebalance and especially work cycles this year. So let's save it for then. ;P
Kwoning how to brush comes with time and practice, I was reffering to the very little control over BSP cuts and how it effects building and rendering and the sloppy occlusion calculations leading to flickering textures that you see in pretty much every map that wasn't thoughtfully and extensively checked and reshaped.
That's actually a pretty easy request. Basically, the bigger and longer your line through one or multiple running and / or undivided polys may cause cuts. The bigger the cut the heftier the chance for holes and flickering. The amount of nodes may also be an indicator. You actually have a good amount of control over it (by manually placing solids into the cut so it gets forced to recalculate) and you can also force BSP optimization through the build all menu where you can change calculation values and prioritization of cuts vs portals and such. This is also one of the few instances where a tutorial (by Hourences) was actually preserved. Click!

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by papercoffee » Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:39 pm

DavidM?
Well at least we got one tutorial saved UT99.org - Essential Mapping Tutorials

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by Iacobus » Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:06 pm

Swanky wrote:The UT community has a pretty great archive right now actually. Pretty much everything has been preserved. Issue is sifting through all those files to actually find the good ones.
Of content created, not for content creation. We're talking past each other here. I'm not scoffing at those who spent time learning and improving to put quality in their work, quite the opposite. I'm saying they weren't given
proper credit for it. I never said there isn't good content to be found, I managed to collect a great amount of them thoughtout the years, I said there's no recognition in the time, thought and effort put into it reason why you
have to sift through 20k plus files to look for it. I'd rather be here goshing about my favorite community made maps than being seen with bad eyes for stating the obvious.

How many more of those 20k maps could've been great if there was more material available and incentive for content creation and how many more people would be playing them if they knew a little more about the subject? How many people here are left able to give the same feedback you gave me and how many could've been if there were threads on it? I'm not talking killing creativity, but give knowledgeable support to aid its flow (pretty much what you're doing), and as you know, to break rules you must first know them. nor I'm saying people should be forced to learn level design. Nobody was forced to learn uscript, but through community effort and support a lot of people got engaged and interested in. I'm also just griefing the past here rather than hoping for a future.

All I'm really saying is that the lack of content on the subject plus the pouring out of poor quality content that not only obscures the rest but reduces the desirability of the community for more content and appreciation for what's already available. Of course I'm not condemning those who only maps/mapped for fun, but when that's pretty all what's expected, you kill all the incentive for those who really what to get into it and the ability of the commuty as a whole to evaluate and give support to what's being done. Your surprise in seeing someone actually wanting some feedback instead of some taps on the back tells everything about it.

Swanky wrote:And with regular mapping contests I think UT also gets a good amount of maps even to this day.
I read all about the last contest, including the drama of the aftermath, which ties with what I'm trying to say.
Swanky wrote:And I think that back in 2005 when we originally released the FoT mappacks UT was really healthy for its age.
It's been 14 years and you pretty much can only count on the same names to come up of something good consistently. You're drawing the picture of a thriving mapping community when what I see is a handful of people, mostly close friends, doing all the work while the community itself is oblivious to what takes to make a good map and give support when it's needed.
Swanky wrote:Quake 3 had been on a slow decline mapping wise (can't think of that many good community maps for Q3 in general) and CS was played on mainly the same maps for the past two decades or so. So online map rotation isn't that
good an indicator on how many good maps are actually being made. Servers usually load what is most fun. With exceptions, of course. :)
What would be the UT equivalent of Aerowalk and Bloodrun, not in quality, but playtime? Aren't the maps in quakelive mostly community made mixed with some remakes and exclusives?
Not big on CS although I played some TacticalOps back in the day. CS suffered pretty much the same problem: A lot of maps being poured out, very few well thought out, people stuck with what they new, specially the clans that only cared about competition, not the community.

I hope we're in the same page now. I'm not talking about quality, specially when these come usually from the same authors, I'm talking about community support for mapping throughout the years that couldn't manage to get more people engaged or show awareness and appreciation for what has been made.
Also, I'm not requesting anything for myself at this point, I'm sharing my view on what I could get from the community towards mapping, and I'm not alone on that. I'm sure you had a complete different experience, but not everyone can count on personal friends for feedback. If you weren't here, who would be willing and capable of doing it? I see people with good heart, good intentions and of different areas and skills filling the void, but for mapping in general, it has always been this way. I'm not trying to find culprits either nor blaming anyone here for liking what they like and for doing what they do and keeping alive a community I've not even been part of or done something for.
Swanky wrote:That's actually a pretty easy request. Basically, the bigger and longer your line through one or multiple running and / or undivided polys may cause cuts. The bigger the cut the heftier the chance for holes and flickering.
The amount of nodes may also be an indicator. You actually have a good amount of control over it (by manually placing solids into the cut so it gets forced to recalculate) and you can also force BSP optimization through the build all menu where you can change calculation values and prioritization of cuts vs portals and such. This is also one of the few instances where a tutorial (by Hourences) was actually preserved. Click!
I downloaded his tutorials few years ago together in a 120mb pack when it was available in the forum. Very handy stuff :)
I enjoy doing edits and fixes I'd say sometimes more than creating my own and it gets harder when you can't change the geometry, but I'm talking of how the occlusion tree is formed, sometimes mixing surfaces
of different rooms, of different sides and angles, making it impossible to make a proper occlusion for rendering. And by flickering I meant those desappearing textures due to the fact the render engine thinks it's no longer on screen, which are quite common and can be seen occuring even in very high quality maps. It would've been nice if there were guides on these limitations before people started designing their rooms and arenas. I'm sure thousands of maps were scrapped after days or months of work because of things that could've been prevented if they had access.

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by Swanky » Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:46 pm

It's been 14 years and you pretty much can only count on the same names to come up of something good consistently. You're drawing the picture of a thriving mapping community when what I see is a handful of people, mostly close friends, doing all the work while the community itself is oblivious to what takes to make a good map and give support when it's needed
Well, 2005 the community was still healthy. You have to remember, by that time a lot of the unreal veterans had either moved on or worked directly with Epic on UT2k4. So yes, recurring names by that time, but it had also seen a lot of high quality maps and mods with mappers involved in both of them. A good amount of community veterans worked on Operation Na Pali which was single player, Sabby's w00t maps, Timewarp Crew... I think that both the Imperialpacks and ORM mappack were earlier but that's shoddy memory at this point. Point is, yes, there was a good amount of flux within the community, but actually still a healthy community for a six year old game. So I also like to think that actually a lot of people got the proper credit for it because it started their career with the video game industry.
And by 2005 there were still dedicated reviewers. Few of them, but there was a lot more feedback floating around. I'm trying not to take it as a bash against the crew with you trying to paint a picture of an elitist circle. The maps were veteran maps and we evaluated quite a few maps for that process, sure. But everyone had the chance to get in. That's just how it works, I've been rejected for the ImperialOne mappack earlier. Still learned a lot in that process.

Personally, I don't think there would be that many more high quality maps, though. Most of the time it's the upper 5% perfection, then maybe 2 - 3% that want to get better. Most just do what they do for the love of it, and that's perfectly cool.
All I'm really saying is that the lack of content on the subject plus the pouring out of poor quality content that not only obscures the rest but reduces the desirability of the community for more content and appreciation for what's already available
I disagree with you on that one, though, partially because of what I've been writing a few lines above, and there still have been sources around(although agreeably obscured). Someone who wanted to get better still could have done so. I also don't see how an influx of maps could diminish the actual appreciation of top maps. Why would that make maps like DM-Alcatraz, AggressiveTendencies or LastCrusader not being appreciated? If anything, it's just an indicator that the game still has a solid player and modding base.
...but when that's pretty all what's expected...
If you're settling for perfection, that's cool. Just don't think that everyone else would spend the same time to do so. Some / Most / they (?) really only do it because they are having fun. ;)
I hope we're in the same page now. I'm not talking about quality, specially when these come usually from the same authors, I'm talking about community support for mapping throughout the years that couldn't manage to get more people engaged or show awareness and appreciation for what has been made.
I think we are. I just have a different opinion about it, and that's because all those people who did those great maps have been around for years before they stepped down. For me, that's just the normal flow of things. At age 20, UT did have an impressive life and it's only natural that there is only a small core support. Don't all those "would if" would have changed a thing.

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by Iacobus » Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:05 pm

Not only we clearly have different views on what high quality is, I think we also have a different view of what 'community' is supposed to mean, which renders this conversation pretty much impossible, also
Swanky wrote:I'm trying not to take it as a bash against the crew with you trying to paint a picture of an elitist circle.
Instead of "trying not to take as" you're trying to see it where it isn't. What makes you think I simply popped out of the blue up to some bashing? Not sure what's your gripe with it nor I'm interested to know. If that's your concern and not hearing what a new member has to say, then you can rest assured. I don't think anyone has the obligation of tutoring others, specially those who have learned everything by themselves. I'm talking about the mindset of the community as a whole, that has always been different for mapping than it is for codding, which I can find a lot of content and support for to this day, while mapping not only has basic and missing material, but almost no support, despite the efforts of a few. Nobody can possibly be personaly responsible for the outcomes of an entire community. If simply stating it offends you, there's nothing I can do.
Swanky wrote: Someone who wanted to get better still could have done so.
Through community support?
Swanky wrote:also don't see how an influx of maps could diminish the actual appreciation of top maps. Why would that make maps like DM-Alcatraz, AggressiveTendencies or LastCrusader not being appreciated?
Does the fact I wasn't aware of 2 out the 3 count, despite the fact I have looked specifically for good DM maps for over a decade, or is it my fault for not having dug enough beneath the mounts and mounts of maps pouring out?
Swanky wrote:"If you're settling for perfection..."
What part of "I'm not talking about quality" wasn't clear enough? I said when all the community expects from the mapping section are maps made for fun, for personal amusement, it loses the ability to support those who are actually interested to know more,
which is common practice and what's expected in a lot of other communities. It has nothing to do with quality or perferction, just simply being a COMMUNITY.

Swanky wrote:At age 20, UT did have an impressive life and it's only natural that there is only a small core support.
While you're wrapping things up here, that's what I found in a Q1 forum , which happens to have a version of Aggressive Tendencies made few months ago, I believe by the by the same author


"Let's make 2019 better than 2018. If I am missing a upload of a (well-packaged) new map for more than a week, you may give me animal names."

https://www.quaddicted.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=636
https://www.quaddicted.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=585

and that's what comes out of a community that actually cares for quality and knows how to give support:



Too bad I'm a sucker for UT!

That said, I really want to have the focus back on the map and feedbacks, I hope I still can count with yours, if you'd like.

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by OjitroC » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:26 pm

Iacobus wrote: I really want to have the focus back on the map and feedback
Hi Iacobus - it might be an idea to indicate here that you've posted an updated version (Beta1_4) as some people may miss it since it's added to your first post - I only saw it because I started reading through the whole thread again.

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by The_Cowboy » Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:32 am

Iacobus wrote: Too bad I'm a sucker for UT!
A few more good lines like that and you gonna see a Mapzilla rising!

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by Iacobus » Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:36 pm

OjitroC wrote:
Iacobus wrote: I really want to have the focus back on the map and feedback
Hi Iacobus - it might be an idea to indicate here that you've posted an updated version (Beta1_4) as some people may miss it since it's added to your first post - I only saw it because I started reading through the whole thread again.
Thanks for doing it for me then! I wasn't feelling like at the moment I posted the update and also it seens once you release the first file there's not much you can do to keep the momentum.

The_Cowboy wrote:
Iacobus wrote: Too bad I'm a sucker for UT!
A few more good lines like that and you gonna see a Mapzilla rising!
Not sure if I got it right but sounds like a good thing :lol2:

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by sektor2111 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:19 pm

Bump toward first release and what I did for my playground - as requested with regard to feed-back. I was using some Editor Add-Ons helping me to figure some my own mistakes from past and not only my mistakes but... those done by that "application" which people are using to call UT Editor...
Let's see A.I.:
- I'm not disturbed by HealthVials and their placement - They have only one InventorySpot which I could do without wasting hours.
[attachment=3]BF_Rv00.PNG[/attachment]
and not like here:
[attachment=2]BF_Rv01.PNG[/attachment]

The rest of InventorySpots are placed correctly over items by Editor itself convinced by my builders (MapGarbage in stage) and not moved away from walls around items.
Mainly routes are simple and consistent with less data. An Original InventorySpot:
[attachment=1]BF_Rv02.PNG[/attachment]
And then another Case - without crashing game:
[attachment=0]BF_Rv03.PNG[/attachment]
We do have even aerial routes which default Editor will never do (monsters spawned in other games which are flying have freedom to move around more properly). Red color in image - yes, Editor can show aerial paths, but will never map them.

Aspect:
- all those arches are textures aligned to walls;
- actors located out of map are removed;
- statues are locked - they do not need to be moved;
- decoration flags are back in map because I don't see anything wrong with them to be inside.
Game-play:
- ALL Playerstart actors placed nearby walls with direction at wall are ROTATED to another direction - RocketArena mutator (stock thing) used On-Line might deliver a delayed rocket fire hurting spawned player for no purpose.

Edited 1.4 Beta has generated more paths too close each-other and I still could see textures not so aligned.
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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by Renegade » Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:13 pm

Saw someone asking about DavidM tutorials. I preserved pretty much every tutorial worth preserving in this file, and its all sorted by the tutorial author:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4083

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by Iacobus » Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:07 pm

sektor2111 wrote:Mainly routes are simple and consistent with less data.
sektor2111 wrote:1.4 Beta has generated more paths too close each-other and I still could see textures not so aligned.
I'm interested in seeing how different bots with different behaviors do in a DM game vs original pathing, but the way you talk about pathing is as though I was speaking about geometry and said "polycount could be reduced if the arches were turned
into rectangles". I've reduced nodes from 122 to 112, but that alone doesn't improve pathing in any way. What I'm concerned right now is to make all available paths proper balanced to reduce the predictability of bot behavior and the number of
safe zones for players.

The other issues you listed under aspect were mostly fixed in the 1.4 with the exception of the textures, that will be done after I finish the geomety and define a texture pack. Thanks for pointing out that the statues were movable, hadn't noticed that and if there still are bad playerstart points in the 1.9 please let me know.

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by sektor2111 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:19 pm

In one of my UT moments I wrote a tester for DeathMatch. It is BotyMan3 - a mutator responding at "mutate mebot" command. Why I wrote it ?
Goal was... more goals:
- to examine map if has paths to items - for jumpy routes only another Botpack or XC_Engine can bring a "bot-image" to humans;
- to figure if Bot is taking the same route and being predictable - Yes, it is;
- to figure if some controlled timers toggling paths availability are helpful;
- to figure if a small part of a map has a consistent navigation network and not "multiple networks".
Because I worked with these and testing them, I could figure what does that means NavigationPoints placement - They are not really helping in air unless pawn must fall with any matter and also how to not do impossible paths - low JumpSpot routing to a Higher LiftExit = no jumpy directive - only JumpSpot is speaking with pawn about jumping or teleporting not LiftExit. Some dude making those tagged maps was complaining about bad paths but he failed himself here causing "jump-down" without taking in account the "way-back-up" impossible to reach.
Another situation is that angle making morons to bump in walls constantly - in such case as a stock solution would be a combo or completing spot nearby wall with kicker randomized blowing away bugger. This situation for me is now different (since 2018), using a jumper in MyLevel, disconnecting paths, else for toggling routes can be used a sort of PathsToggler or such based on BlockedPath code but having reversal action as well triggered by a timed trigger or whatever "stochastictrigger" - recommended in maps having multiple routes to items else will result in wandering.

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by Swanky » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:34 pm

Finally got to play v1.9c. Couple of thoughts:

Layout is still good. Still getting lost a metric fuck ton but it's getting better and most of it is probably me anyway. Playerstart near one of the thighs feels weird, though, and thighs0 still aren't getting visited at all. Might need to throw some vials there and play around with the desirability settings of that item. I'd probably put a health package or 2 near brush1355. Bots are having trouble with the xloc to the udmg. Try moving the jumpspot a little further onto the platform and see if that might do the trick.
Lifts - you can set their delay to 0.33 or 0.5 so that when you jump down on them they won't instantly lift you up again. Also, the walls on them need to be blocked completely; it's too easy to block the lift and get stuck by accident.

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