CTF Magic Kingdoms, pathing & zone & etc fixes request

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Red_Fist
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Re: CTF Magic Kingdoms, pathing & zone & etc fixes request

Post by Red_Fist » Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:15 am

EDIT

It's another map where they just plop and shove a brush in, No matter if it pokes through, or just slapped in some spot.
There is the missing floor by the flag tunnel on one side, click the cylinder brush and send it to last.
People just cram subtracts inside subtracts, can't believe this map doesn't have 10,000 HOM's.


I fixed some stuff, if anyone want to continue the bots need help, too many paths in flag rooms I changed it a little but they get stuck in the water , sort of and fit through doors etc etc. among other things.

I fixed the one brush way below had a hole in it and is probably the cause of all the , stuck in void complaints.

There are also those large subtract brushes that I got rid of,

The long bridge movers, the ONLY way to get paths is put a add brush under them. On the last build you CANNOT redefine paths.
So what I did was move 4 add brushes outside the map and you can slide those back if you want the paths on the bridges, then move them back out and DON'T redefine the paths again. If anyone rebuilds this those paths will be gone again.

Map needs more work, warpzones need to be lined up, I rotated the warpzone brush in the blue flag area, so you might have to rotate it back. There was only one texture that culled.
Not sure how this map is supposed to work, like the movers on the floor in warpzone.
I might have messed up the effect because I deleted his TranslocOutEffect things way out in the void.

Get rid of some lights if possible

I made the one creature factory, flies, but I don't know if there is any trigger
The bottom is a vacuum zone now, there is no more kill triggers.

Sort of worth saving just don't mess with the BSP very much at all if possible.
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CTFMagicK2T9.zip
Needs More Work !!!
(2.06 MiB) Downloaded 10 times
Last edited by Red_Fist on Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CTF Magic Kingdoms, pathing & zone & etc fixes request

Post by sektor2111 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:22 am

Red_Fist wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:15 am
The long bridge movers, the ONLY way to get paths is put a add brush under them. On the last build you CANNOT redefine paths.
Wrong.
I think I explained already in other topic about paths over bridges or such and building map in STEPS. No one is listening and then no one does the right thing. First you need to have a good geometry supporting a rebuild later.

Method 1)
- SET bridges to Mover - ShowPolys from menu
- Put PathNodes if aren't there
- Build paths (No, I ain't say REBUILD)
- Now go to that Default Build Menu and UNCHECK the stupid Build Paths box - simply LEAVE PATHS alone, they have been build already.
- Build geometry and the rest for not having visual glitches at those movers showing polygons.
- DONE.

Method 2)
- manual connecting these using PathsLinker and some UGold227 whatever supporting this builder;
- you can connect these exactly as your soul wants: reachflags, collision and even distance.

Method 3)
- fooling Editor - exactly, Editor is like a baboon that can be fooled with a banana. Here might work, like in other cases, the water trick - already explained in forum. It will require the same strategy for final build of map, uncheck paths build box before building final geometry. Here it's needed some WaterZone that has to be toggled back after building paths - advantage for zoned maps. This sort of connecting strategy works even in run-time in XC plugins creating paths.

Cave at - future full build will RUIN MAP'S Navigation Network like in any case where paths are customized against various buggers. You don't need any brush anywhere under mover.

Edit: feed back
In map posted in previous post there are ONE-WAY paths over bridges - so to speak some reachSpecs are missing...
Teleporters screwed up for being attached are not a good idea - How about some MyLevel ?
Last edited by sektor2111 on Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: CTF Magic Kingdoms, pathing & zone & etc fixes request

Post by Red_Fist » Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:51 am

In the end you still have to not define paths, but there is another aspect, the bots don't think they can walk up that high, so using a brush lets them walk across instead of looking around.

I have never had paths created by showing the mover polys and placing nodes, if the mover is high off the ground.

You mean turn everything off other than define paths ? then not define and enable all the other things ?

I think I will stick to the temp brush idea, I had way too much trouble with this issue.

Fix er up man :tu:
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Re: CTF Magic Kingdoms, pathing & zone & etc fixes request

Post by sektor2111 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:56 am

Methods which I described are working - tested.
Use XC_EditorAdds or newer UT469 and see what paths are there - ONE WAY paths WON'T WORK - remember me to sample a plain cubed map with a mover and paths and - you'll see then even some differences between DevPath and XC_DevPath. In other hand here paths are incomplete and YES, they need a reconstruction. By any mater you can use RememberSpot and ShowPath like I said X times for checking rooms/bridges WITHOUT Bots.
As for teleporter heading to cage - it's plain stupid - What is for that thing ?

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Re: CTF Magic Kingdoms, pathing & zone & etc fixes request

Post by Red_Fist » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:17 am

"As for teleporter heading to cage"

I think it's so you can dunk them in nitrogen zone, LoL or drown them
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Re: CTF Magic Kingdoms, pathing & zone & etc fixes request

Post by sektor2111 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:21 am

And is generating a Path through cage which I don't think it's a good thing to be used by Bots. Drowning Pawns for no purpose ? What's the point ?
No X times - teleporter is screwed causing net channels errors and it's a dumbness.

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Re: CTF Magic Kingdoms, pathing & zone & etc fixes request

Post by Red_Fist » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:29 am

It should be converted to a MH map anyway. I was tempted, those pawns are like baby sitters to the bots. All they do is stand around and get in the way of the bots. :roll:

But even MH all that warpzone stuff would have no use, you would need some reason for all that stuff to work in MH. and all those portals.
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Re: CTF Magic Kingdoms, pathing & zone & etc fixes request

Post by OjitroC » Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:27 am

sektor2111 wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:21 am
And is generating a Path through cage which I don't think it's a good thing to be used by Bots. Drowning Pawns for no purpose ? What's the point ?
No X times - teleporter is screwed causing net channels errors and it's a dumbness.
I suppose the point in drowning bots is that that is the point - it's a trap and one that doesn't just trap bots. Don't forget the map is also played by humans (not that they will fall for a trap more than once, at least one would hope so).

The thing about that room with the cages and portals giving a view of different parts of the map is that it is probably intended to be a central part of the magical feel of the place - however in terms of game play it has a purpose but one that is not readily apparent; and it may not even be noticed. The only access to it is via a teleporter behind a door in the flag room - it will only be discovered by chance, by someone exploring the map. I've played the map lots of times and have never gone through that door (until now). Of course once one is aware of it a human player can stand in the centre on the podium looking at the 'windows on the map' and go through one to recapture the flag, defend the flag carrier, etc. The only problem with that is one falls from a height and takes damage (at least I did when I went through one of the portals onto a bridge).

The wider point is that perhaps some of the things that appear 'dumb' are actually intended - perhaps the map maker didn't want bots to get out of the fountains once they fell in (another trap for bots) or, at least, made it hard for them to get out (as they can in certain places)? In order to fully critique the map, one needs to be aware of the maker's intentions - what was he trying to do? How did he want the map to be played?

The map needs to be played quite a lot really to get a fuller understanding of it (and of the purpose of some of the movers and effects) - there is another 'trap' that I have found - in the lower room with the portals, if one jumps through the 'window' looking into the opposing flag room a firey barrier appears and you die. The teleporter effects appear after one has jumped through a 'window' in that lower room onto one of the bridges, possibly as a signal to opponents that someone has done that or perhaps merely as a magical effect.

In passing, there is a 'fatal hole' on one of the bridges close to a castle and it's possible to fall through this - in fact this caused the game to crash in one match as it gave rise to a render anomoly - I also noticed that the log reported that various other things 'fell out of the world'.

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Re: CTF Magic Kingdoms, pathing & zone & etc fixes request

Post by sektor2111 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:48 pm

It's why I see all time people playing normal maps (CTF-Face it's one of maps with even dedicated servers) not such "creations".
@RedFist
In map where you did some geometry fixes (incomplete paths, borked teleporters, ect.) I still can see 3300+ reachSpecs. Nothing is motivating me to waste more time here... maybe later after deleting all these "voodoo" ideas with no help for ON-Line gaming.

Some previous map with "problems" from 2012 was an easier deal and it looks like it can be played - of course after adding some normal weapons and not what is there... for a so called "normal" CTF.

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Re: CTF Magic Kingdoms, pathing & zone & etc fixes request

Post by EvilGrins » Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:24 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:21 am
Drowning Pawns for no purpose? What's the point?
Yes! Equal rights for bots!!
Sorry, couldn't resist.

Actually, scripted pawns usually can't drown. I'm not sure why that is but I've seen Queens & Warlords & all other Unreal1 monsters underwater for lengthy periods of time and they don't ever drown.

Only ever seen a HubCat drown.
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Re: CTF Magic Kingdoms, pathing & zone & etc fixes request

Post by Red_Fist » Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:11 pm

Here is an example of how they map.
I mean do you drive up to a store and park your car half way melded inside the building of bricks and then just un-meld it and drive away? NO the damn wall will block your car. !!!

OR can you hollow out inside an empty box more than it is already hollowed out ? :roll:

Glad these people don't build houses.
Attachments
STUPIDBRUSH1.JPG
subtracts inside subtracts
STUPIDBRUSH2.JPG
friggen add brushes poking out all over the place
STUPIDBRUSH3.JPG
oh wow fix my map
STUPIDBRUSH4.JPG
no common sense
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Re: CTF Magic Kingdoms, pathing & zone & etc fixes request

Post by OjitroC » Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:49 pm

EvilGrins wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:24 pm
Actually, scripted pawns usually can't drown. I'm not sure why that is but I've seen Queens & Warlords & all other Unreal1 monsters underwater for lengthy periods of time and they don't ever drown.
I think that's been discussed in another thread but it's because, in the default properties, Movement->Underwatertime is either 0 or -1 meaning no time limit. For Bots this time is 20.00 (meaning 20 seconds). Of the ScriptedPawns, Brutes have 60.00 and Cows 40.00 - most of the rest are 0 or -1 (this can give rise to a problem in MH if they can't get out of the water and their death is required to activate a triggered event, counter, etc).

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Re: CTF Magic Kingdoms, pathing & zone & etc fixes request

Post by sektor2111 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:30 pm

Keeping Pawns underwater means a waste of time miss-balancing team, like I said, destroy these, or this is not a map for me...
If you say that has some visual glitch for render due to whatever settings that's another reason for not wasting time... unless we can delete a bunch of brushes and making a new map using this as base.

If you want, I can do some sort of map with certain settings for actors and you'll get stuck instantly when you look there... it's simple.

@RedFist
I understand what you mean with these "builds" - yeah, I would not like to work nearby such a genius. A mountain of maps have such X subtracts in the same space when things could be more simple and... for getting rid of a BSP Cut you can check brushes in line with that aggressive BSP Cut - definitely you will find funky numbers... adding another brush won't solve a previous BAD brush with non-coplanar polygons - that's a dream, error might be moved elsewhere in space not fixed. Not a single time I took such a brush nearby a BSP Cut and I was checking it in NotePad - nothing was entertaining.

Edit: Here is the pathed bridge "story" - newer UT469 has done paths - still 3400+ reachspecs and then is needed some tuning for working with XC_EditorAdds and later removing impossible XC jumps. Does it worth the work ?
469_BridgePaths.PNG
and final build
469_BridgePaths_finalBuild.PNG
All these are bi-directional but... still too many...
EDIT:
Here Bots are using bridges, certain NON-CTF assets have been eliminated. Probably geometry can be improved as long as some WarpZoneMarker was in void - I removed those paths.
CTF-MagicKingdomz2Test2v10.7z
(1.34 MiB) Downloaded 12 times
1189 reachSpecs - In last minute I saw Lifts (out of paths of course) and I removed junks around them attaching Lift stuff.
Redeemers from Bases do not have paths - let's see if this is good or bad.

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Re: CTF Magic Kingdoms, pathing & zone & etc fixes request

Post by OjitroC » Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:54 am

sektor2111 wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:30 pm
Here Bots are using bridges, certain NON-CTF assets have been eliminated. Probably geometry can be improved as long as some WarpZoneMarker was in void - I removed those paths.
1189 reachSpecs - In last minute I saw Lifts (out of paths of course) and I removed junks around them attaching Lift stuff.
Redeemers from Bases do not have paths - let's see if this is good or bad.
Yes, pathing is good now. Probably a good idea not to path the Redeemers as bots can play havoc with them and so be extremely annoying (not that I use Redeemers any more, as I replace them with something else in StuffSwapper).

I see you removed the arrow spawners from the gate trap? And the teleporter effects on jumping through the warpzones? Is there a reason for altering the weapon placement?

There are some new visual problems though - in the lower portal room in both bases
A nasty HOM - in the blue base but it is similar in the red base - if you jump in to that, you die!
MK2.jpg
Except for the views of the bridge none of the 'windows' show the rooms as they should - all of the windows give an odd view of the rooms (compare these with the original) and, of course, the points at which one emerges are different (which is significant for gameplay, see below) - just to note that you still take damage if you jump on to the bridge
MK1.jpg
There's an invisible barrier in the red base (I think it is) immediately in front of where I am standing
InvbarMK.jpg
Jumping through some of those 'windows' takes one into the opposing team's flag room - in the original map a firey barrier appears and the player dies. In this revised version, the barrier appears but there is no death effect. This effectively means that to capture the opposing flag all one has to do is to go to the lower room and jump through to the opposing flag room - of course, you still have to get back with it - but you can run round to the teleporter on the ground floor which will take you to the lower portal room and go through the portal back to one's own flag room. I don't think one will now die if one does this.

Finally, I now fully understand the purpose of the teleporter effects spawned after jumping through the portals (not that they are always spawned) - if you 'touch' them, you are transported into one of the cages in the portal room and then the cage and occupant is dunked in the nitrogen(?) - so it's a subtle trap for humans and bots, in keeping with the overall 'magical' theme.

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Re: CTF Magic Kingdoms, pathing & zone & etc fixes request

Post by EvilGrins » Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:46 pm

OjitroC wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:54 am
I see you removed the arrow spawners from the gate trap?
A pity, I always appreciate a good death trap.

There's another map I edited awhile ago, and again recently, called CTF-GreatWallXL. In the center of the wall there's a similar setup, though the activation for the gate is closer to the flag bases.

Gate closes on both sides, and a battering ram from the ceiling smooshes everybody stuck inside.
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