CTFM-Triton is finally finished!

[EvilGrins]

Despite number of player starts, what only influences balance is selected number of players and basic math. It's one of the reasons I usually choose about 12 players when CTF4/CTFM is involved, because even when a CTF3 or standard CTF comes up with MapRandomizer everything balances out evenly.

Although, default options allow the choice to not have balanced teams.

[OjitroC]

Despite number of player starts, what only influences balance is selected number of players and basic math. It's one of the reasons I usually choose about 12 players when CTF4/CTFM is involved, because even when a CTF3 or standard CTF comes up with MapRandomizer everything balances out evenly.
Although, default options allow the choice to not have balanced teams.

The point isn't about the balance of teams in terms of the number of players for each team but balancing where they start. With 3 Red team starts in the Green team area, there's a chance that one or more Red team players will start there most games and may well respawn there during a game - and that may not be wholly desirable and unbalance the game as a whole.

I don't know what happens if one has 5 players on the Green team but only 4 Green playerstarts - do they start elsewhere? Do you only get four Green players? Does one Green player get telefragged on starting?

[Koolflux]

Yoo @Koolflux I sent ya a PM a year or so ago over this map, if ypu have time can ya check out those issues as well please?

Yes, I will definitely check those issues out when I have time and find ways to rectify them.

[OjitroC]

Yes, I will definitely check those issues out when I have time and find ways to rectify them.

If you are going to have another look at the map, perhaps you would want to alter 3 of the PlayerStarts in the Green area that are currently set to Team0 (the Red team) to Team2 (the Green team) - so that there are seven PlayerStarts for each team, all located in the appropriate team area.

There appears to be no way for bots to get the Redeemer but perhaps that is deliberate?

There are a few other things you might want to have a look at

Spoiler

Navigation Points with no incoming connections (which will cause problems for bots)
NoIncomingPath: PathNode243 is not having incoming connections.
NoIncomingPath: PathNode455 is not having incoming connections.
NoIncomingPath: PathNode456 is not having incoming connections.
NoIncomingPath: PathNode457 is not having incoming connections.
NoIncomingPath: PathNode458 is not having incoming connections.
NoIncomingPath: InventorySpot165 is not having incoming connections.
BreakPointsFound: These 6 navigation points aren't that used as valid paths. They might be break points if are a piece of a road.

Pathnodes that are possibly too high
UnReachableNodes: PathNode243 looks much over ground for normal Human Size, check it.
UnReachableNodes: PathNode350 looks much over ground for normal Human Size, check it.
UnReachableNodes: PathNode353 looks much over ground for normal Human Size, check it.
UnReachableNodes: PathNode379 looks much over ground for normal Human Size, check it.
UnReachableNodes: PathNode454 looks much over ground for normal Human Size, check it.
UnReachableNodes: PathNode455 looks much over ground for normal Human Size, check it.
UnReachableNodes: PathNode456 looks much over ground for normal Human Size, check it.
UnReachableNodes: PathNode457 looks much over ground for normal Human Size, check it.
UnReachableNodes: PathNode458 looks much over ground for normal Human Size, check it.
UnReachableNodes: PathNode459 looks much over ground for normal Human Size, check it.
UnReachableNodes: PathNode460 looks much over ground for normal Human Size, check it.
UnReachableNodes: PathNode467 looks much over ground for normal Human Size, check it.
UnReachableNodes: PathNode472 looks much over ground for normal Human Size, check it.

Possibly too many pathnodes/paths which could cause problems for bots
PAmmo1 might generate RED heavy path.
ut_biorifle0 might generate RED heavy path.
BioAmmo0 might generate RED heavy path.
UT_Eightball0 might generate RED heavy path.
RocketPack1 might generate RED heavy path.
ShockCore1 might generate RED heavy path.
ShockRifle0 might generate RED heavy path.
minigun0 might generate RED heavy path.
Miniammo1 might generate RED heavy path.
ShockRifle1 might generate RED heavy path.
ShockCore3 might generate RED heavy path.

[sektor2111]

Lol, so "finished" map it's not ready.
Here might be needed some work around those Red Paths things as long as not all of them are a true damage for Bots, but are having no use when it comes to monsters - not the case for items unless they are part of longer routes... Builder is not having human eyes which makes things harder to manage.

[EvilGrins]

Lol, so "finished" map it's not ready.

Oh, there's a whole wide range of pathing issues I could cite, like how bots leaving one base and trying to get back to theirs often get stuck on the ramp because they tend to jump onto it rather than run and land between the wall and the ramp, or the number of them that get stuck running in place on the stars or just off the side of the stairs.

But I suspect this is less an issue for human players. Most folks only do basic pathing for bots, because they do not fear a SkyNET type situation when they anger the Bots' Union.

[sektor2111]

But I suspect this is less an issue for human players.

Then all Nodes and so called paths network can be removed as they don't really help CPU's spirit.

[OjitroC]

Oh, there's a whole wide range of pathing issues I could cite, like how bots leaving once base and trying to get back to theirs often fer stuck on the ramp because they tend to jump onto it rather than run and land between the wall and the ramp or the number of them that get stuck running in place on the stars or just off the side of the stairs.

That happens because most of the pathnodes with no incoming connections and a lot of the nodes that are possibly too high above the ground are on or around the ramps. Looking in the editor, one can see that the ramps in particular are not that well pathed in terms of node location and height.

The getting stuck between walls and stairs/ramps happens because there are no paths in those gaps. In some maps the issue of gaps between walls and ramps/stairs is dealt with by having inventory items at the end of those 'dead-ends' and having a path to and from them.

Of course, this is something for mappers to think about when designing a layout - are there dead-ends of one kind or another where bots might get trapped and how do I deal with it? By putting stairs and ramps close to a wall so there is no gap or by having a slightly wider gap and pathing it?

[sektor2111]

If you want a "bad ass" stage which I created not a single time (- fixing it later) it was BlueBase in CTF-November around spot nearby HealthPack (big keg blah blah). I was getting flag "impacting" me over Box nearby "Keg". Bots trying to recover flag were accessing even that Keg and I was shooting them with shock making them to fall over Box with "Armor2". I "collected" there almost all Blue Team and allowing my Reds to score 50 - 0 with me doing NOTHING, just like that. And I can tell more "real from unreal" stories/facts which I know concerning that November A.I. TRASH - of course these can be fixed...
In such holes I'm tempted to add Jumpy Combos / Translocator Combos (it's CTF after all) just for preventing a "resting" spot which doesn't make any sense... Are you playing or just sleeping on keyboard having flag taken ? Yes, an enhanced CTFGame makes things different but the lacks of paths heads to the similar issues.
Either way in this CTFM/CTF3 map... I don't have more problems as long as I don't play MultiCTF.

[OjitroC]

There's a couple of other things that might unbalance the map (the score in EG's screenshot above is suggestive of that)

1 There's no direct path from Blue>Red or Red>Blue - all paths go via the stairs/ramp to the Green Base. The whole of the central area of the map is unpathed - one would expect 'someone' from the Blue team with a Red flag for example to go straight to the Blue base rather than go towards to the Green Base first where the chances of encountering members of other teams are higher;

2 The weapon distribution is
Blue : Minigun, Shock, Flak
Green : Pulse, Ripper, Bio
Red : Ripper, Shock, RL
which could give Blue and Red an inherent advantage over Green?

[sektor2111]

You forgot fascinating defenses - every single sniping spot it's turned with butt back at enemy routes.

To not forget doors timings when carrier is pushing door which is no longer opening until stepping back (bot is not always doing this) and again having all chances to die because of a dumb door... You don't need 2 hours for figuring this "against Bot" type setup.

Geometry talk ? Let's say that by merging polys and reducing paths from 6211 reachSpecs to 1667 reachSpecs (known as paths) map-size is reduced up to 200 kb...

[EvilGrins]

every single sniping spot it's turned with butt back at enemy routes.

Never underestimate the power of a tactical fart.

[OjitroC]

A couple more things to check out for playing the map on-line in particular

Spoiler

StaticsCheck: Bork >> SkyZoneInfo0 won't be seen in clients. Class has bStatic True and has been screwed to False.

StaticsCheck: Actor flagbasejrm1 is screwed as bNoDelete. Check it...
StaticsCheck: Actor nilitejrm04fb1 is screwed as bNoDelete. Check it...
StaticsCheck: Actor flagbasejrm0 is screwed as bNoDelete. Check it...
StaticsCheck: Actor nilitejrm04fb0 is screwed as bNoDelete. Check it...
StaticsCheck: Actor flagbasejrm3 is screwed as bNoDelete. Check it...
StaticsCheck: Actor nilitejrm04fb2 is screwed as bNoDelete. Check it...

[sektor2111]

I don't know how much is affected this zone thing but... effects such as flares and all sort of noticeable things screwed up from bStatic will never exist in clients unless they are bNoDelete and then... they will stay. Sometimes this is needed for whatever rotation since a bStatic won't move. Here we do have indeed a bNoDelete setup. Those lava-waves which I added elsewhere look more stable and aligned as bNoDelete because they won't have a copy recreated in client and they need to have moves, but not reconstructed by replication.