Need some advice on mapping

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TankBeef
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Re: Need some advice on mapping

Post by TankBeef » Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:47 pm

This is part of what I am liking about this forum. Lots of great advice and tips from "The Swanky!!!" :lol2:
Ok, lots of info, will have to read carefully, meanwhile I will start with this:
Swanky wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:00 pm
First of all, most of all UT maps were made back in the late 90's and early 2000's meaning they were very 90's influenced.
Yes, I think this is part of what keeps me coming back to this game. The 90s are my decade. Well, the 80s too, but I grew up and still listen to a lot of grunge bands. These "modern" games have this weird "millennial" feel, don't know exactly how to describe it, but they feel odd. Also happens with the music, and the movies in some way, although there have been a few good movies recently.

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papercoffee
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Re: Need some advice on mapping

Post by papercoffee » Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:37 pm

Swanky wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:00 pm
@ Any mod, do we have a list of resources post pinned somewhere?
You mean like our new subs
Mapping-Resources
and
Mapping-Tutorials
By request we collected them in those sub-forums for better readability of the Mapping section.

They are selectable when you go into the Mapping section on top of it.

Red_Fist
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Re: Need some advice on mapping

Post by Red_Fist » Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:03 am

You don't need mapping advice, I seen a cool real life picture, of a small castle. Like a good shot, it was all white, walls, round tower and two angle peaks on top of housing-windows, small security area room you see as you enter from the brick road., top 45 degree like if you were at the corner node of a brush looking down.

I could see it possible for UT like a great EASY one.

But then reality creeps in and the editor (still can be done idea), so it's your chore to produce a killer map. :tu: :)
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UnrealWarrior
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Re: Need some advice on mapping

Post by UnrealWarrior » Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:53 am

You guys rock! Thank you so much!!! I'll be back later to answer your replies guys, it's been really helpful :)

I made this video showing my progress so far:

https://youtu.be/Gd-dLy1v62c
"We have nothing to fear but fear of tigers"

~tiger attack survivor

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Aspide
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Re: Need some advice on mapping

Post by Aspide » Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:18 am

Looking good, the map is still in very early stages but I can already picture how entertaining it's going to be when it's completed. :tu:

Brock as a bonus gift..., what an ugly guy. :wink:
Somewhere in Nevada...

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UnrealWarrior
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Re: Need some advice on mapping

Post by UnrealWarrior » Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:08 pm

I got caught with some heavy stuff irl, when I had time, I made something...
This is based on the 20th Anniversary Mappack's DM-IciclePyramid.

still needs some work on the map, I haven't done lighting or nodes for bots to circle around. For now,I just want to you guys to review it if you got time.
I'm terribly sorry I didn't replied to you guys, I was really busy, I didn't I wasn't coming back until now.

Thanks!
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EvilGrins
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Re: Need some advice on mapping

Post by EvilGrins » Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:58 am

I say we call the map "Fred" as that is a good name.
Image
Not entirely sure about that mannequin.

At 1st blush, the map may be prefixed with a DM but it looks more like SP or MH... in that there appears (without popping into UnrealEd to confirm) to be only 1 spawnpoint.
Image Image
This can be problematic as everyone spawns in the exact same spot which leads to multiple telegrags.

That and a map with only 1 specific spawn point seems like an MH/SP thing as it suggests everyone goes from there to other places.

While the bots were telegragging each other, I cruised around in spectator mode. I initially thought the map had no weapons but I found them futher in. Spaced out over vast distances from each other, as the map is really quite large.

As previously noted, the lighting is very much the same all over... which given the theme is a bit flat. Castles kinda need shadowing and darkness here and there.

Don't get me wrong, the map looks great. I'm just nitpicking.

One bot managed to get to a teleport near the spawnpoint...
Image
...and it took him there.

The water has no depth, it's all surface and the waterfall's misting seems a bit abrupt. Feel like it should be going further up or just not chopped off like that.

For a map of this size to be effective for Deathmatch, it needs multiple spawnpoints spread throughout the map.
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Aspide
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Re: Need some advice on mapping

Post by Aspide » Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:51 am

The map looks good, I think it could be a great domination map because of the size. If you're going to make caverns or terrain, I highly recommend using tessellated cubes. (Because I notice that the brushes that you used for the terrain outside weren't made with tessellated cubes or the terrain brush).

If you have any questions about mapping (especially bot support, I'm really good at that stuff :tongue: ) let me know :tu: .
Somewhere in Nevada...

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Delacroix
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Re: Need some advice on mapping

Post by Delacroix » Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:34 am

I'm backing this up just in case, lol.

Also yes, this seems very clearly SP. And, for a first effort, splendidly done (hell, even with the second-rate lighting or even lack thereof, this is more decent than many first efforts of the past). I'd say you got potential, particularly as an SP mapper so stick to it.

If you have a Discord acc, I'm there as

Code: Select all

Victor Albert Delacroix#7010
I can give you more detailed feedback later.

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OjitroC
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Re: Need some advice on mapping

Post by OjitroC » Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:46 pm

It's certainly a nice looking map - coherent design and use of textures, so it has the sense of being a specific place. A great effort :gj:

Given what's been noted thus far by others, it's rather unclear as to what the map actually 'is' or more particularly what game-type it is for. The prefix suggests DM but the single PlayerStart and your previous references to SP suggest otherwise. So you might get more directed feedback if the game-type is made clear.

I had a look at the map in 469b using OpenGL and D3D9 renderers and have these detailed comments in no particular order (based on the assumption that it is a DM map):

1 The log says "Log: AmmoSniper0 fell out of the world!" so there is a BSP hole somewhere - I didn't check the location in the Editor;

2 There's a nasty HOM in the corner to the left of the area with the warhead launcher/teleporter (it's kindof visible in EG's screenshot);

3 The teleporters to and from the warhead launcher seem to work only once - one can get down to the redeemer and not get back (or get back but not get down there again) - perhaps there is a time delay and this is deliberate?

4 The waterfall doesn't appear in 469 with the renderers noted above - only the spray is visible - in 469 I don't see what is in EG's last screenshot;

5 The teleporters above the lava trap don't work so can't test that out - in fact, I'm not sure how one gets to the teleporters in the first place?;

6 The birds don't show up - well, one does but it moves very, very fast for some reason;

7 More ambient sound is needed, other than just the water;

8 As noted by EG, the water is very shallow given the noise, the volume come over the water fall and the lack of an obvious outlet;

9 As noted by others, the map is large - this is fine but does it lend itself to DM? It might be better for DOM, as already suggested. If it is for DM, then the placing of key items becomes important - should the high value items all be in the centre? Is this going to concentrate action in particular places? Are all the corridors going to be used very much? The location of PlayerStarts and their relationship to weapons and other pickups will also be important. Just something to think about?;

10 The layout, particularly with the two levels, gives opportunities for a variety of combat situations - close/medium/long range - and this is a postive - but good botpathing will be critical in ensuring movement around all areas of the map - so how do you want the map to be played and how do you think it will be played given the current layout and location of pickups of all types?

11 Is the crush trap route going to be used enought to actually make the trap worthwhile? Is it a usefull feature of the map in any case? Remember bots will always fall for it, humans will only fall for it once. Do you want bots to trigger it?

12 I don't think the lava trap works - jumping through the windows should trigger it?

13 The lift doesn't work - checking in the Editor indicates that it is not a mover though there is a trigger nearby for the chains?

Testing the map in 436 with EXUOpenGL
1 Oddly the waterfall doesn't work in this version either - just get the spray;

2 The lava trap works - jumping through the windows results in the floor opening (actually a trigger near the Shock Rifle) - lava causes no damage though - the teleporters are not linked nor linked to an external teleporter.

Some of these points refer to things you probably haven't finished and/or are aware of.

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Re: Need some advice on mapping

Post by sektor2111 » Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:12 pm

EvilGrins wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:58 am
1 specific spawn point seems like an MH/SP thing as it suggests...
Wrong, MonsterHunt is a Team-GAME which means that a single PlayerStart it's out of topic - and we can talk about "PlayerStart" actors not really "spawn point".
Aspide wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:51 am
If you have any questions about mapping (especially bot support, I'm really good at that stuff :tongue: ) let me know :tu: .
Let me see that in a sample map-file :agree1: .

Edit: No name ? I think this is very simple...
DM-11_05_21_17_59
Either way:
DM-Nov15_21_559PM
:noidea

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Delacroix
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Re: Need some advice on mapping

Post by Delacroix » Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:22 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:12 pm
Wrong, MonsterHunt is a Team-GAME which means that a single PlayerStart it's out of topic - and we can talk about "PlayerStart" actors not really "spawn point".
First off, being all super-technical in a thread like this is hardly useful feedback, second, he is correct. A spawn point for a player is what UnrealEd calls a PlayerStart.

Another matter is that EG clearly meant the kind of gametype suggested by the presence of a single playerstart in a loose manner. MH is often considered an arcadey version of your regular coop game, and coop is just online adaptation of standard single player formula. Having a single area devoted to playerstarts evidences that the initial gametype considered was either SP (as specifically said by UnrealWarrior a few posts prior to releasing this 'DM'), coop or MH, so something designed at fairly linear progression through a PvE scenario.
sektor2111 wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:12 pm
No name ? I think this is very simple...
DM-11_05_21_17_59
Either way:
DM-Nov15_21_559PM
This is completely unhelpful. It's just a datestamp for a filename. This isn't actual name for the map, doesn't provide any hint towards the map content.

EDIT: All right, I've launched the map and I definitely approve of what I'm seeing. I love the traps showcased in the level! Reminds me of DM-Twilight from Fusion, DM-Eclipse from Division, Velora Temple from RTNP and other charming stuff.

The layout would work both for DM and for SP, albeit I definitely would sooner support the latter than the former. For DM, definitely more playerstarts are needed all across the level.

The ancient temple / DM-Gothic vibe I'm getting from it (ShaneChurch) is not that often used so it's always refreshing to see a location like that.

For titles, you can do the following approaches:

- either the early David Munnich approach (he called two of his maps "Trap Temple" and one "Trap Ship" becase of the prevalence of traps on location, so yours would then be "Trap Monastery" for instance,
- or dedicate the location to Velora outright, citing the deity's name in the title, such as "The Mountain Monastery of Velora" or some such,
- or reference the Jeremy War maps which similarly included traps in construction, the mentioned Twilight and the Sky11/12 that for Division was named Eclipse. This naming scheme follows the moon phases, so to fit, New Moon would do nicely. While unlike these mentioned maps, it is not a SkyTown-themed level, but ShaneChurch, however the trap theme connects them.

In case of SP approach, the level will definitely require significant expansion, as a DM, what's there should work as-is, just needs plenty of polishing.

EDIT: Oh, I just saw the SP-Map-test from before (YT) featuring a nice intro to the location. Perhaps... readd it?

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Aspide
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Re: Need some advice on mapping

Post by Aspide » Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:37 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:12 pm
Aspide wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:51 am
If you have any questions about mapping (especially bot support, I'm really good at that stuff :tongue: ) let me know :tu: .
Let me see that in a sample map-file :agree1: .
Well I have a lot of experience with bot support by modifying maps made by other people (never going to release them of course), I'm very good at:

-Using the LiftExit-LiftCenter combo for elevators, jumping up or down, narrow places, etc.
-Using AlternatePath correctly. (shame that Assault doesn't use them :( )
-Playtesting the bot support (for example by having a friendly bot follow me all over the map)
-Having bots grab items in the air.
-Making sure bots use WarpZones appropriately.

You could get Marathon:Resurrection 2.5 to see my skills with bot support (I fixed all the multiplayer maps) and I even made my own map, MRCTF-RingsofSaturn, which has great bot support (playing with GODLIKE bots is so much fun :tongue: ) Also my sp campaign A Friend In Need has bot support (for the monsters).

The last map that I changed in my collection was AS-RocketCommand, because the bots were acting dumb when they spawn on the truck at the beginning of the map.

I don't think I'm going to make a sample map-file because I'm busy making a map for the 2021 Mapping Contest, but I'll always be available if someone has issues with their map/s :D .
Somewhere in Nevada...

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Re: Need some advice on mapping

Post by UnrealWarrior » Sun Nov 07, 2021 6:16 pm

@EvilGrins
"Fred" we call it, then! lol. (To be honest, in my UT folder, this map is called 'piss'. And it has many copies that goes like 'piss1', 'piss2')
I used the Mannequin to see if those wooden barriers are not taller than the actual player.
I also used one PlayerStart just to test things. This map is in earlier stages. As I said before, no lighting or nodes has been done yet.

As for the weapons, the map layout was from DM-IciclePyramid, then I added more rooms and became large (same with first map I posted a video about, it has 1900 brush and none of the rooms are decorated), so that's why the weapons are spaced out. on DMs, I rarely saw a map with 2x of the same weapon (Deck16 has two Flak Cannons).

I wanted that cave with the Redeemer on it to have a waterfall hiding it. I used a terrain to make it cave-like brush, now it has HOM because of morphing that terrain. Will add depth to the water soon.

@Aspide
I firstly wanted to be a DM map, because the layout I used was from another DM. But yeah, a domination map is great idea for this one, I can make a version of this map as DOM.
I thought using terrains would be a good idea because of how many vertices I have on a brush, but ended with a big mess that has HOM all over it.

Automatically merged

@Delacroix
Thanks! Maybe my maps are SP because I don't play too much online (there isn't many players online) and I played a lot of SP shooters (DooM, Quake, Unreal).

Are you the same Delacroix on the betaarchive? If so, you're a living legend! Documeting all those Unreal build that I never thought I'd see :p It's is one of the reason I became interested in the first generations of the Unreal Engine and UT.
That's why I'm learning to map and modelling and probably coding, and hopefully getting into the engine itself, to see how all this magic works!

Will definetly add you on discord!

@OjitroC
Thank you, I only used the Ancient and ShaneChurch packages, using more than two will inconsistencies with the textures(I added some from Crypt2 on the elevator).
-It is a DM, as I said before, the one PlayetStart just to test things.
-I'm using v436 with the updated OpenGL renderer because UnrealEd 2.1 turns off the real-time editing everytime you start a map from the editor, but it has nice things like snap to grid, that's an awesome feature.
-hmmm..'AmmoSniper'. this is outside in the corner, that's where the sniper ammo is located. will check it out. and for the HOM, I believe morphing that terrain too much is what caused that to happen.
-I messed up in the teleporter, you're supposed to go down swimming inside a waterfall to get the warhead, then, it teleports somewhere else(inside the temple).

-The waterfall problem, maybe my version/renderer is different? (v436).
-For the lava section, I haven't planned the situation well. There's supposed to be a teleporter behind a secret wall to take you there, once there, the lava floor opens but closes after 5 seconds. this is intentional, because there will be another switch nearby to open it, so you can shoot the guy there from the windows if he thinks he's smart just to wait until everybody goes. lol

-The birds are also gigantic because they're close. as for sounds, I didn't mess with other things tbh except brushes, Other things are new to me and I gotta browse through sounds and Actors to know what I have to work with, as for the water, it needs a waterfall, I haven't a good one.

-It is large for DM, that's what I wanted it in the first place, and yes it makes a good DOM map, probably will make a version of it later. The map is circular (at least what I think) and items such as the shield belt is in the middle of the map, the damage amplifier is in the lava section...valuable items should either in a risky area or in the middle of the map.

10-The main section of the map is where the two floor area is. there's three way to get up to the second floor and if you wanna get down, it is not far, you won't get damage plus there's open areas to get you down. as for the weapons, they're not scattered very well, there's a lot of guns in the bottom area than the upper one(only rocket launcher and the razorjack). the outside area has the redeemer, when you jump and get it, there will be a teleporter to get you back to the main area.
There were supposed to be a rooftop kind of floor(where the 'U' is) but it is large enough already.
(I don't know if this is the right answer to you question...)

11-I thought about as and Idea to, let's say: you're behind somebody, he's going through the trap, right where the trap is a shield belt, instead of shooting him and make noise, you sneak up and press it ;) this is mainly why I did it, it needs to be fast enough so the player won't avoid it.
I had a stupid map, it was a factory like with convoyer belts and boxes moving around, and on the ceiling, I wanted breakable boxes to drop random items when they're shot. I didn't know how to do it, like how to spawn boxes with random items, I haven't touched a single line of code in UScript.

12-Will add a switch nearby soon.

EXUOpenGL part:
-The waterfall texture is the one used in ArcaneTemple. i don't know if this helps.
-No ZoneInfo was added, will work on it soon.

Yeah, but it is good to point them out. I just wanted to see what people here thinks of the layout of the map, I thought it was unplayable.
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Delacroix
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Re: Need some advice on mapping

Post by Delacroix » Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:40 am

UnrealWarrior wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:11 pm
(To be honest, in my UT folder, this map is called 'piss'. And it has many copies that goes like 'piss1', 'piss2')
Image

Sorry... had to.
UnrealWarrior wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:11 pm
Thanks! Maybe my maps are SP because I don't play too much online (there isn't many players online) and I played a lot of SP shooters (DooM, Quake, Unreal).
Like I said, I don't mind seeing this become an SP map, not in the slightest. I enjoy these most.
UnrealWarrior wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:11 pm
Are you the same Delacroix on the betaarchive? If so, you're a living legend! Documeting all those Unreal build that I never thought I'd see :p It's is one of the reason I became interested in the first generations of the Unreal Engine and UT.
Remember that Leo_TCK was also responsible for many achievements... even more than myself, especially as time was passing and he was the one finding more and more people with that kind of stuff.

And... whoever was the wonder responsible for the recent slew of Unreal-themed leaks I got from _Alpha_ Archive.