Monster Hunt 613

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Feralidragon
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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by Feralidragon » Sat May 28, 2022 4:29 pm

I understand where you're coming from, concerning package segregation, but here the nature of the issue is a different one.
NW3...
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As you pointed out, I did something similar in NW3, where the main mod itself is in a core package, MH stuff is in a separate package, and each weapon also has its own package.

There were a few design end goals with this which were actually achieved, such as not requiring the full 100+MB mod to be installed if you just wanted 1 weapon of it, as well to be able to fix each individual weapon if needed without having to resort to hacks or renaming the entire mod package-wise (due to package mismatches), and if push came to shove and the mismatches were eventually fixed, this meant that you could also update and fix core issues without touching the weapon packages and such.
It is a fairly modular design, and although it's rare for people to not just use the entire mod, there have been some practical instances where only part of the mod was used in some degree.
So, segregating packages, and extending into new ones does work well indeed.
In addition to this, before 469 was even a possibility, ...
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... I had plans to do a new mod, something like a NW4-ish kind of mod if you will.
With all this in mind, I intended it to be even more modular than this and make packages smaller and easier to update/fix/extend, by splitting a single package into 4 modular ones:
  • Editor : this package would be for exclusive usage of the Unreal Editor, with only actors to be added directly into maps;
  • Interface : this package would be for exclusive usage by other mods, to interface with the main mod through a common package;
  • Core : this package would be the actual core/engine that made everything work (the other 2 packages above would have mostly "dummies" and such);
  • Manager : this package would be the manager that would take care of setting everything up between the 3 packages above, and this is the only package all the other packages above would depend on, whereas the 3 packages above wouldn't have any dependence between them.
The main design goal with this approach would be to have the ability to change and rename (due to package mismatches) ANY of these packages, and everything would just work without resorting to overriding or other types of hacks.
Updating the Editor would mean for it to have new functionality for maps that would be supported by a newer Core, but newer Cores would still support older Editor packages.
Updating the Interface would mean a similar thing for mods.
Updating the Core would mean that fixes and optimizations could take place without any headaches in relation to map or mod dependency, and it would be the most frequently updated package.

The Manager wouldn't really be updated much, or ideally at all (it would be probably the weakest point of this architecture, but it would also be the simplest).
But this was (and still is) a rough sketch of an architecture I had in mind, so I didn't work out how everything would work in detail.
As you see, it's not that I don't understand or support a more modular design with the packages themselves, I am actually all for it.

However, doing a more modular approach is not something that necessarily makes sense all the time, and is particularly hard to pull off cleanly when working with existing packages which aren't modular to begin with.
And MH is certainly one of those mods: it was built as a single package serving as a gametype to play, a set of tools for mappers to use, and an interface for mods to extend and such, and all-in-one type of deal.

Things like MH2 only came into being exactly because the original MH package couldn't be updated, due to the package mismatch issue.
But 469 quite literally changed the game in that particular issue, by actually solving it, given that package mismatches was an engine limitation that made no damn sense.

So it only stands to reason that MH updates should follow a similar pattern now, years after the root issue of MH updates was fixed by the time the first 469 was rolled out (this was fixed already since 469a, and we're about to have 469c released).

I don't necessarily disagree with new MH functionalities to go into a separate package, but the problem is that the MH package as it is isn't really ready for it, and MH mappers expect to find everything they need inside the main MH package already, and they don't expect and likely won't use all the extra packages that would come with a feature each.

And by "not being ready", I don't mean it to be impossible, but rather "not ready" in the sense of "not having been designed that way", so forcing it now to be different is actually harmful in the long run.

MH2 and its derivatives are already a series of hacks and extensions put together, without any thought into which design patterns it should follow or any consistency whatsoever, so imagine if the original MH package started to be handled the same way, it would end up being a nightmare with MH mappers and server owners not really knowing what to do, it would become too confusing.

But if something like a "MH3" was developed, as something rewritten in terms of packages to be very modular and have meaningful extensions, it would become a lot easier and would accomplish the goals that you seek.

However, someone would need to put in the work for it, and thus far that seems extremely unlikely, because on one hand Shrimp seems to have barely the time for MH alone, and on another everyone else is voicing their "disgust" and their own accomplishments like trophies in the form of MH2 and other mods in this thread, potentially demotivating Shrimp further into doing anything at all for the mod, without even trying to work together with him in a constructive manner to maybe build something actually worthwhile, and in the end that's what the real problem is here, and it has nothing to do with modular packaging or technical issues in the least.

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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by sektor2111 » Sat May 28, 2022 7:21 pm

Feralidragon wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 4:29 pm
... potentially demotivating Shrimp further into doing anything ...
Actually not really... it's about to not have as goal adding less useful things, but something new with less breaking through originals.
You can try to imagine a random frustration when you know how monsters are reacting in your older works compared with newer one, simply reverting fixes back. As a recent example, when I started 469b and MH611 with map MH-Demons][ in first 3 seconds I saw two Squids killing two Devil Fish and this sort of stage happens a lot like in 2010. And then ? Then is time to wait the end point. After than I'll polish a subclass if I'll have energy to do it - I'm losing a bit interest probably because the age has something to say or events from now days, and then I have to take these slower.

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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by Old UT Veteran » Sat May 28, 2022 8:19 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 7:21 pm
I saw two Squids killing two Devil Fish and this sort of stage happens a lot like in 2010.
I haven't seen this randomly happen unless its provoked when one pawn accidentally hits another. I believe many tried to get this fixed by assigning a 'team' to all scripted pawns in some versions on MH. I think some of the more packed, cube maps that have tentacles spamming redeemers have these issues, no? :lol2: Although its definitively worth fixing, especially considering some pawns use splash damage weapons.

This circles down to difficulty to an extent, which had reminded me of the pawn filters unreal 1998 used to have on various difficulties. Perhaps this could add a little bit of variety in MH and MA maps by randomizing spawning of pawns based on monster difficulty? Id be another factor to control outside of pawn health and skill, so that certain maps can be set up so pawns can be in different locations.
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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by OjitroC » Sat May 28, 2022 8:56 pm

Old UT Veteran wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 8:19 pm
I haven't seen this randomly happen unless its provoked when one pawn accidentally hits another. I believe many tried to get this fixed by assigning a 'team' to all scripted pawns in some versions on MH. I think some of the more packed, cube maps that have tentacles spamming redeemers have these issues, no? :lol2: Although its definitively worth fixing, especially considering some pawns use splash damage weapons.
Personally, it doesn't worry me if monsters kill other monsters as it means I have less to do (and because it seems logical and entirely appropriate to me) - but then I approach MH much as if it were SP - I don't use bots and I only play maps I can complete by myself. So if this issue is likely to be 'fixed' in a future version of Shrimp's MH, I would urge that the 'fix' is made optional in that it be run or not as the end user (the Player) desires.

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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by Old UT Veteran » Sun May 29, 2022 1:51 am

sektor2111 wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 8:12 pm
A.I. Expanded MH
- Monster - initial state GameEnded - no crapped weaponry from monsters;
- Game starts - monsters are waking up in rows for preventing recursive crash concerning team;
- Monsters are not really interested to attack other monsters because are a TEAM - slow timers can still check if something goes crazy;
- Monster damaged tells to nearby friends that someone has attacked him and the group will focus on enemy instead of sleeping;
- Skaarj if is still bIsPlayer at taking first damage will go back in monster suit and taking damage;
- a tracker living a short life is testing a replacement for a potential monster in range and will load monster with weapon if this is not part of map;
- monster ghosting because of TriggeredDeath original dumbness is killed forever;
- monster attack mainly nearest visible threat;
Bots:
- new waypoints are depleted as objectives;
- switching order to SearchAndDestroy because Monsters have no Base and AssaultTheBase it's a nonsense in MH;
- projectiles replacements and restoring stupid settings;
- MonsterWayPoint - lousy placement - not exactly reachable:

#1 Test a direct view height for touching capability;
#2 Capture a closer Node in range - I did not know about bHunting in that time but now I'm using that;
#3 Find Path to said closer node - assigned in Mh2 with Script, native in XC_MH based on Engine;
#4 No path = run DM code - pick ITEMS routes - no reason to mock at next objective, path can be locked for some logic reason;
#5 Path is found = Move there only if enemy cannot be seen or no enemy - stupid run and gun is no longer a habit;
#6 Closer to objective = Touching is ignored if Bot it's in a battling session;
#7 No enemy visible or No enemy = allow visiting and move to next objective;
#8 Blown out of paths - go to nearest visible node in 3500 UU range - exactly, not 800 UU as Engine claims;
#9 Someone is moving around a Teleporter and I want there too ? I'm Waiting a little bit - we don't need to telefrag each-other;
#10 I'm talking when things are messed up - no routes.
These are all pretty interesting and good ideas. I think a lot of other these issues are caused by the plethora of maps out there as well that completely disregard any kind of bot support which by extension also affects scripted pawns. This is something that is viewed in probably every gamemode aside MH, id be surprised to see everything fixed lol. Some maps don't even have waypoints, just good old triggers to open doors, etc. There are maps in the style Shrimp has setup, more closely related to unreal SP vs. giant cubes that seldom care for any kind of rational AI behavior. One of the interesting ones here though is the SearchAndDestroy and AssaultTheBase... I was not aware those impact bot behavior other than being an 'attack' command for bots to hunt for objectives.
sektor2111 wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 8:12 pm
#5 Path is found = Move there only if enemy cannot be seen or no enemy - stupid run and gun is no longer a habit;
#6 Closer to objective = Touching is ignored if Bot it's in a battling session;
Haven't these been addressed already, at least partially in the latest revisions?
I think #6 has already been added to the latest version to combat bots skipping boss objective (touch trigger, forget about boss). As far as run and gun, i don't really see it happening to the extent that it was before. At the least, perhaps what I'm interpreting is that bots work together and alert another of threats. I believe I had mentioned it but there definitively an issue with bots running into monsters twice their size and HP, thinking they can outlast monster while using rocket or shock-alt at 1 meter. A tad similar case with bots using redeemers, but more prevalent. I believe MH_A_V3 had a lot of work done to improve bot behavior in regards to this topic, which I think Sektor also created? So props to him :tu:

As for for further expansion on #5, we already have the HuntNode to make bots more 'cautious' of danger, although it does require map work. Then again, I see if this is solely to have the script fix map issues, which I personally think is too many to count considering the success of MH and content out there. :loool:

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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by sektor2111 » Sun May 29, 2022 6:15 am

You can take in account that there are maps indeed "empty" - no navigation. The paradox is that they do not run empty everywhere in every single server. Some of them which I liked and I wanted a more aggressive A.I. activity were subject for deploying run-time navigation and even decorations. This is doable since 4+ years ago basically using even prior versions of XC_Engine, even in v21. V24 is a bit more improved and these plugins can operate even in v25. I'll show you some images as a proof because I'm not trying to fool any of you - I don't have any reasons for that. Do you think this is an edited version of MH-MinasTirith map ? No, it's original map... Take a look at new face of the same old map...
MinasTirith.png
Because...
Spoiler
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Code: Select all

NavAdder: Looking for a class called > MINAS_TIRITH.PathsMapper
NavAdder: Found module, attempt loading... MINAS_TIRITH.PathsMapper
MINAS_TIRITH: PathsMapper0 Patching Level.
MINAS_TIRITH: Spawning MH Bot objectives...
MINAS_TIRITH: Today is Sunday.
MINAS_TIRITH: Master Patcher wants to run map as Week-End Version!
MINAS_TIRITH: Attempt to find Week-End add-on...
MINAS_TIRITH: Week-end package found, perform load attempt...
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for Pupae0 ZBugger
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for Pupae1 ZBugger
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for Pupae2 ZBugger
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for Pupae3 ZBugger
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for Pupae4 ZBugger
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for Pupae5 ZBugger
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for Pupae6 ZBugger
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for Pupae7 ZBugger
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for Pupae8 ZBugger
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for Pupae9 ZBugger
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for Pupae10 ZBugger
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for Pupae11 ZBugger
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for Pupae12 ZBuggar
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for Pupae13 ZBuggar
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for Pupae14 ZBuggar
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for Pupae15 ZBuggar
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for Pupae16 ZBuggar
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for Pupae17 ZBuggar
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for Pupae18 ZBuggar
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for Pupae19 ZBuggar
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for Pupae20 ZBuggar
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for Pupae21 ZBuggar
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for Pupae22 ZBuggar
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for Pupae23 ZBuggar
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Event for Tentacle0 loler
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for Tentacle0 Vegeancer
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for LesserBrute0 LemonBrute
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for LesserBrute1 NutBrute
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for LesserBrute2 LemonBrute
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for LesserBrute3 NutBrute
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for LesserBrute4 LemonBrute
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for LesserBrute5 NutBrute
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for LesserBrute6 LemonBrute
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for LesserBrute7 NutBrute
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for LesserBrute8 LemonBrute
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for LesserBrute9 NutBrute
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for LesserBrute10 LemonBrute
ScriptLog: WK Mechanic has set as Name for LesserBrute11 NutBrute
MINAS_TIRITH: Week-end package has been loaded.
MINAS_TIRITH: PreBeginPlay Completed...
NavAdder: Module has been started...
NavAdder: Searching server-client stuff if available...
NavAdder: Map's name is: MH-Minas_Tirith
NavAdder: Personal seeking strategy: Looking for a common server-client class called > SCL_NVADMH-MINAS_TIRITH.StuffTweaker
NavAdder: Did not find any common module or module is unavailable. Seeking alternate old methods...
NavAdder: Map's name length is: 12 characters.
NavAdder: Target class is called > P_MINAS_TIRITH.StuffTweaker
NavAdder: Found a tweaking module, attempt loading... P_MINAS_TIRITH.StuffTweaker
MINAS_TIRITH: Common stuff loaded.
Indeed with stock UT we cannot do all sort of patches but ECoop mods are showing that certain corrections can be done by mod itself, beside, it's not needed to host codes inside. NavAdder doesn't know anything, it uses plugins or we can call them patch-modules. These are doing their job for a specific environment supporting all sort of future patches. What patching can be applied ? Exactly that "objectives" task and many more. They can be resident in certain MH mapping stuff where mapper can find and add them in future maps, or using a configuration they can be added during run-time at user's will in older ones outside of main package which should stay normal.

And then what's the thing ? In order to not have new maps requiring new mod-packages we can use assets from outside exactly as we do with patching maps without embedding hard-coded new classes. Also removing old vars was a bad thing. Whatever was using them now is out of duty. Adds were not affecting prior MH sub-classes but removals were causing total damage in stage because of gaps created and code calling nothing. Screwing integrity is not good at anything.

Then when it comes to build server from ground zero, in 2022 do not expect sektor to do only a "maps hosting" storage called by n00bs "awesome server". Whatever has no paths and/or cannot be pathed is out of stage. I'm really expecting a more logic monster/bot behavior. How did I come to this decision ? I simply got tired of running for years files aka maps which were only flawed experiments and mapping attempts based on all sort of excuses and settings done by those not having any clue what they do.

Of course, the best MH mod won't solve certain stock problems and then... this kind of server/multi-server needs to be a bit touched.
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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by OjitroC » Wed Jun 01, 2022 4:20 pm

I have just noticed that I get this in the log sometimes (in 469b)

Code: Select all

Error: MonsterHuntRules Transient.MonsterHuntRules1 (Function MonsterHunt.MonsterHuntRules.SaveConfigs:001A) Accessed null class context 'GameClass'
It happens when I go to Start Practice Session and then cycle through the gametypes when deciding which gametype and which map to play AND if I don't then start a MH map - if I cycle through gametypes and then start a MH map I don't get that error message (if I include Monster Defence in the gametypes I look at, with the CTF maps appearing in the maps list, and then move on from, the error message includes a reference to MonsterDefenceRules).

The error has no apparent impact but thought I would just bring it to notice.

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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by Neon_Knight » Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:43 pm

OjitroC wrote:
Wed Jun 01, 2022 4:20 pm
I have just noticed that I get this in the log sometimes (in 469b)

Code: Select all

Error: MonsterHuntRules Transient.MonsterHuntRules1 (Function MonsterHunt.MonsterHuntRules.SaveConfigs:001A) Accessed null class context 'GameClass'
It happens when I go to Start Practice Session and then cycle through the gametypes when deciding which gametype and which map to play AND if I don't then start a MH map - if I cycle through gametypes and then start a MH map I don't get that error message (if I include Monster Defence in the gametypes I look at, with the CTF maps appearing in the maps list, and then move on from, the error message includes a reference to MonsterDefenceRules).

The error has no apparent impact but thought I would just bring it to notice.
I was going to suggest opening an issue on shrimpza/monsterhunt, but he's not allowing Issues to be... issued. 🤷‍♂️

Automatically merged

Feralidragon wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 4:29 pm
However, someone would need to put in the work for it, and thus far that seems extremely unlikely, because on one hand Shrimp seems to have barely the time for MH alone, and on another everyone else is voicing their "disgust" and their own accomplishments like trophies in the form of MH2 and other mods in this thread, potentially demotivating Shrimp further into doing anything at all for the mod, without even trying to work together with him in a constructive manner to maybe build something actually worthwhile, and in the end that's what the real problem is here, and it has nothing to do with modular packaging or technical issues in the least.
Totally agreed with this sentiment.
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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by Neon_Knight » Fri Jun 10, 2022 2:54 pm

Just a little heads-up, shrimpza/monsterhunt now has an Issues section (Shrimp blames me for his lack of time because I keep him too busy with my Unreal Archive uploads 😁)

So, if anyone actually wants to really help (i.e. NOT egomaniacs who claim to help the community and their only actual interest is boasting about how much superior they are and how much anybody who don't measure to their high standards must die) now you have an actual place to report bugs and make suggestions.
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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by sektor2111 » Fri Jun 10, 2022 3:16 pm

Neon_Knight wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 2:54 pm
who claim to help the community....

who don't measure to their high standards must die...
First of all things is that you really don't get that people won't throw in toilette their years of work, hours spent over nights, discussions, argues, failures, crashes and all that stuff. Things here can continue, replacing old mods will be done when new mods will go a bit forward not backward. But, since you are not aware about these assets (adds, fixes, tweaks, bonuses, scoring, etc) and what was done you can keep singing death stories and all sort of theories of butterflies with pink rabbits and flowers. I will be one of those using these if they will go to desired stage/state because I'm for Development but out of packages anarchy. These are my options according to 2022 year, nobody has demanded anybody's death - that's a product of a mind with serious issues.

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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by OjitroC » Fri Jun 10, 2022 8:41 pm

Neon_Knight wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 2:54 pm
Just a little heads-up, shrimpza/monsterhunt now has an Issues section (Shrimp blames me for his lack of time because I keep him too busy with my Unreal Archive uploads 😁)
Thanks for letting us know about this :tu:

I assume we don't need to raise an issue for anything that we have posted in this thread thus far (I'm thinking in particular about player deaths caused by anything other than scriptedpawns adding to, rather than subtracting from, the number of lives the Player has)?

I have noticed that the odd creature chunk doesn't eventually disappear - possibly something to do with MonsterHunt.MonsterMess - but I don't think it is that important (or important enough to raise an issue).

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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by Neon_Knight » Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:02 am

If it's a MH 611 bug or regression, an issue should be created, yeah.
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Re: Monster Hunt 612

Post by Shrimp » Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:27 am

Updated to MH612

https://github.com/shrimpza/monsterhunt ... ses%2Fv612

Fixed the life bug, and while testing in MH-Damn2 with ten billion monsters, did some optimistations to MonsterShadow to squeeze out a few more FPS under those conditions.
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Re: Monster Hunt 612

Post by Neon_Knight » Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:38 am

Excellent!
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ProTip 3: Only the people that do nothing but criticize don't make mistakes. Do things. Make mistakes. Learn from them. And screw those who do nothing but throw poison and criticize.
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Re: Monster Hunt 613

Post by Shrimp » Wed Jul 13, 2022 1:10 pm

https://github.com/shrimpza/monsterhunt ... ses%2Fv613

Updates with some localisation fixes and a new German translation (thanks Neon_Knight and eGo), as well as some improvements to Monster Defence AI.
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