UED and Texture limitations

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[did]Madis
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UED and Texture limitations

Post by [did]Madis » Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:18 am

I was just wondering, is there a texture dimension limit for stock renderers in UT? I tried to test a map online with some friends that used some 512x512 textures and some of the people whom I tried this with got a GPF when trying to connect. After removing the textures from the map, it worked fine for everyone. In U1 and UT, there were some 512x512 textures used (I think the vandora texture in Temple of Vandora in U1 was 512x512, and some textures in the XbpFx(?) package) and I haven't heard anyone having trouble running those before. Is there a special trick when importing 512x512 textures to make them work with all stock renderers?
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Re: UED and Texture limitations

Post by Creavion » Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:01 am

Standard UT D3D can only display max 256 x 256 pix textures without scaling them down. Retail Open GL already afaik can display much higher "resoluted" graphics.

You can also import 1024 x 1024 or 2048 x 2048 pix textures, the editor can handle those resolutions. Just make sure you reduce the colours to max 256. (8 bit I guess), but dont use MS paint for that. You can already better use free programms like Xnview for that.
You make them work ingame enable S3TC support. It is supported by drivers like D3D8 or D3D9 for example.
( http://rednemesis.beyondunreal.com/inde ... &Itemid=70 )

A proof for that are DieHards UT highres textures (unrealtexture.com), most textures are available in a resolution of 2048².
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Re: UED and Texture limitations

Post by Feralidragon » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:47 am

The max resolution the standard UT can handle is 512x512 mipmapped textures, and a max of 256x256 not-mipmapped textures (not mipmapped mostly used for HUD/Canvas and models/meshes skins).

In case you import a 512x512 texture, but it's not mipmapped in the process, UT will crash, be it used in meshes, BSP surfaces or even in the HUD.

I used several 512x512 textures/skins for maps and mods, but I had to mipmap them in the process so they could be supported by everyone, and it worked. So in case you want to use 512x512 textures in anything, let the mipmapping enabled in the import.

Of course, with the new renders and new options, you can now use more than 1024x1024 textures, but personally I don't use them, for 2 reasons:
1 - With lower res textures, people can play any mod or map, with no problems at all.
2 - I would rather advance to UEngine2.x or 3.x than use even higher resolution textures where I can only use BSP as structure for all maps.

The "problems" also they showed up and still show up be it in a server or locally, could be a 3rd reason for me, but I think that shouldn't be a motive, since problems can be solved.

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Re: UED and Texture limitations

Post by [did]Madis » Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:34 pm

Yeah, I know all about how to make basic textures, importing, using a balanced palette and everything, but I just didn't know why some of my 512x512 textures didn't work.

Thanks, I'll try checking the mipmap box and reimport them.
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Re: UED and Texture limitations

Post by Myth » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:08 pm

Also, note that Unreal Engine supports 3 type of textures:

8-bit ones. Each pixel uses up 1 byte. It uses a 256 color palette, and palettes can be shared between textures. Imported from 8-bit RLE compressed PCX files. (note that Unreal does not use this compression) It takes 3 times less space than a standard BMP.

24-bit ones. These are just your standard BMPs. No compression is used. It uses up 3 bytes per pixel. No palette. Full color quality. Use this to get hi-quality screenshots, or textures that have HUGE color varitation. These are imported from 24-bit BMP files. Remember that you can always import 3 standard 8-bit ones instead of one of these.

S3TC compressed textures. These are a bit more complicated to implement. It usually has a compression ratio between 1:4 and 1:8. These are only good for low color contrast textures. If you want to make S3TC textures go to http://www.unrealtexture.com/index.htm, but it's more trouble than it's worth IMHO.

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Re: UED and Texture limitations

Post by Diehard » Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:25 pm

The max resolution the standard UT can handle is 512x512 mipmapped textures

I disagree there, Unreal and UT are capable of rendering textures up to 1024 pixels, as a matter a fact, the Skaarj.utx stock package already contains textures in the size 1024 x 512 pixels. S3Tc textures can even be 4096 x 4096 pixels.

And yeah, once in a while i hear Unreal also supports 2048 for a normal package, and 8192 x 8192 pixels for S3TC. I still never tested it, but seeing the capabillities i would not really be surprised if its possible. But for now, its untested grounds...

Of course, with the new renders and new options, you can now use more than 1024x1024 textures, but personally I don't use them, for 2 reasons:
1 - With lower res textures, people can play any mod or map, with no problems at all.
Well, people tend to forget, its not so much important how large a single texture is, its the total amount of used surface that counts. If you build a map using hundred(100) 128 x 128 pixel textures, is the same drain on the vid if you have a map that uses oné(1) 1024 x 1024 pixels and thirtysix(36) 128 x 128 pixels textures.


Its the total amount of surface that counts, not an individual texture. And there can be a reason to have such a large texture, like a cool rockface or a huge deco that cannot be split. Its rare, but very sometimes there can be a need for it. But to split such a texture in four(4) 512 x 512 pixel pieces is pretty pointless.


But yeah, always make damn sure MipMaps is checked on import, or it will chrash people.


S3TC compressed textures. These are a bit more complicated to implement. It usually has a compression ratio between 1:4 and 1:8. These are only good for low color contrast textures. If you want to make S3TC textures go to http://www.unrealtexture.com/index.htm, but it's more trouble than it's worth IMHO.

Its more a problem i dont have the proper pages prepared for mappers, including needed examples, tutorials and files to work with :( , but i still think its worth it, since you can have endless quality and less drain on the server downloads :)
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Re: UED and Texture limitations

Post by Feralidragon » Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:57 am

Diehard wrote:
The max resolution the standard UT can handle is 512x512 mipmapped textures

I disagree there, Unreal and UT are capable of rendering textures up to 1024 pixels, as a matter a fact, the Skaarj.utx stock package already contains textures in the size 1024 x 512 pixels. S3Tc textures can even be 4096 x 4096 pixels.

And yeah, once in a while i hear Unreal also supports 2048 for a normal package, and 8192 x 8192 pixels for S3TC. I still never tested it, but seeing the capabillities i would not really be surprised if its possible. But for now, its untested grounds...
I didn't know that... But just a question: I know that BSP surfaces can handle higher resolutions even if not S3TC (I mean, I already saw and used 1024x1024 textures in maps), always mipmapped of course, but regarding mesh skinning, can UT hold a mesh with a texture with 1024x1024? It's because I always heard that such skin size would crash UT in the meshes being them mipmapped or not, and so I only used 512x512 skins, even for the vehicles I am making (where each one has around 4 to 6 skins, all 512x512).

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Re: UED and Texture limitations

Post by papercoffee » Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:14 am

Ok ....and now for dummys (me)

What do this mipmapping do? And why do I have to activate it? :noidea

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Re: UED and Texture limitations

Post by Creavion » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:16 pm

Ferali: I am sure it works, but you could test it with any from DieHards highres texture packages. The main problem is only: S3TC works only with texture package (longer time ago I had unreal 1 highres plant skin textures, but it was not possible as it seems to include them into the system, anyway I lost the files :tongue: ). So you would have to include your mesh skins in an utx file.

@mipmapping:
http://wiki.beyondunreal.com/Legacy:MipMap
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Re: UED and Texture limitations

Post by papercoffee » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:55 pm

Creavion wrote:@mipmapping:
http://wiki.beyondunreal.com/Legacy:MipMap
Ah ok... thank you!
so, this mipmapping necessary for playerskins too?!
Good to know!

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Re: UED and Texture limitations

Post by Diehard » Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:15 pm

But just a question: I know that BSP surfaces can handle higher resolutions even if not S3TC (I mean, I already saw and used 1024x1024 textures in maps), always mipmapped of course, but regarding mesh skinning, can UT hold a mesh with a texture with 1024x1024? It's because I always heard that such skin size would crash UT in the meshes being them mipmapped or not, and so I only used 512x512 skins, even for the vehicles I am making (where each one has around 4 to 6 skins, all 512x512).

I admit my knowledge is very, very limited on that area, since i never worked with it, but i did do a test long time ago on a player skin and i was able to add an S3TC 1024 x 1024 skin to it. And from the looks of it, it seemed to work, and i dont recall correct, but i think i even applied an 2048 x 2048 skin to it. But can remember for sure.


But that only means it can be done using the S3TC "trick" i use, and it does not necessary mean you can add a "normal" 1024 x 1024 skin to it. Apart from that, yeah, i always hear its very limited, and for Unreal i always read it cant even be bigger than 256, so you already surprised me telling you did 512.....

So, no clue really, but it still would be interesting to try if you can apply a 1024 or 2048 on a large vehicle using the S3TC trick.


Ok ....and now for dummys (me)

What do this mipmapping do? And why do I have to activate it? :noidea

Here is a MipMap example: MipMapExample.jpg

And what Creavion said: http://wiki.beyondunreal.com/Legacy:MipMap


And if you import a new texture, there is a checkbox for MipMaps, make sure to always check that if you import a texture. There are occasions when you should not use it, for example if you want a screenshot from the map embedded in Mylevel, than you should disable MipMap on import.
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Re: UED and Texture limitations

Post by Myth » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:03 pm

Mip-mapping makes further away surfaces less detailed. The computer does not draw texture detail that wouldn't be visible. Removes texture aliasing and improves drawing performance at the cost of slightly bigger memory usage. Back in the old days it gave that extra performance that programmers needed and removed that ugly texture aliasing that early 3D textured games suffered from.