GameSpy closing down

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Dr.Flay
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Re: GameSpy closing down

Post by Dr.Flay »

OK. Calmness an 'ting !

I keep urging everyone with any concerns to join the chat room, as any questions can quickly be answered there (as long as someone is awake!)
All security and stability concerns are always valid to ask about, even if they are unfounded.

Dane, you are already in some of the project threads, so why not come and join us in the room ?
The more people that actually participate and join-in with tests and the brain-storming, the better, and the sooner peoples fears can be dealt with, or validated if true.
Rather than discussing it in little groups from a distance, it helps to get your hands dirty.

Smirftsch has now started testing it for use at Oldunreal, so again I urge anyone who has anything to say, speak-up.
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http://cgiirc.synirc.net/?chan=%23333networks
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Re: GameSpy closing down

Post by Darkelarious »

Dr.Flay wrote:...Once upon a time,
there were 3 wise masters.
unreal.epicgames, master0.gamespy and master.mplayer
Great story, Dr.Flay!
Tobibrocki wrote:Is this the current situation in a nutshell or did I misunderstand something?
Correct.
A number of other games depends on the GameSpy master server, I discovered a whole list of games that are compatible with the 333networks master besides UT. My master server was originally designed to be able to show statistics on the main 333networks website. When that worked successfully, I decided to keep working on a master server equal to GameSpy and the others. Regardless of what Epic's master server does, I will continue to work on it and to perfect it. Nobody/nothing stops master servers from going down in the future. At least there will now be an open-source master server available that works in the exact same way as the original masters, but that can be operated by the community and perhaps used by independant game developers.
TheDane wrote:but the rumours and methods are piling up in the background.
By now I also heard that people fear I may grow a God complex. I wrote a master server from scratch in my spare time. I got it running and made it work with a dozen of other games. The larger part of people are enthusiastic about my progress and offered me support for it. Hell yeah, I think that's pretty cool!. But on the other hand, I think everybody will forgive me for the (hopefully occasional) arrogant or sloppy comment. I think that it also shows good will to give my work back to the community -- complete with source-code and documentation.

What somebody else thinks of me, is none of my business. As far as I'm concerned, rumours are nothing more than jealousy, or people who bullied me years ago that are now realizing that they may have bullied somebody on whom they might now depend. All understandable, but not really a problem, or not the community's problem for that matter. Let rumours be rumours.

When there are serious acquisitions, it becomes a problem. If it is something that I did wrong, and have control over, I will do my best to resolve that. I rely on the community to recognize my intentions to be open and transparent, and refute any false acquisitions.

I try to be transparent by providing source-code, documentation and information on the website and various forums. The 333networks master server is open-source, that means that others can see exactly how it works, what it does, and whether it is safe to use. My focus is on making the master server as robust and reliable as possible, adding new features (such as synchronization) and a web interface such as http://master.333networks.com to the process.

About the technical details
There are two versions of the master server. I labeled them "333networks" and "perlsqlite" in my git repository.

The 333networks version is made to obtain the IPs from master servers, uplinks and manual inputs and show them on the 333networks main site. Uplinks are voluntarily set by the admin of the server. Manual inputs on the website can be done by everybody who knows the server IP+port. Obtaining addresses from master servers (should actually be singular-- GameSpy only) is done in the exact same way as UT does it: check for UT servers, every once in a while.
noccer wrote:Example: You add your utserver to epic only, Gamespy clones the serverlist from epic. Does it mean Epic is untrustworthy, or Gamespy? What about Gametracker, Xfire etc.. Are they untrustworthy?
Is google untrustworthy because it shows thumbnails from other sites? Many sites never asked for it.
Higor wrote:-And if a master server is querying another master server... doesn't that defeat the purpose of actually making a master server as a backup for an incoming shutdown?
In my view, querying other master servers helps making the list of servers complete. The impact of querying master servers individually is negligible compared to regular traffic. That means that it is only a debate, and not an actual issue about resources. If you as community consider this an issue and debate it to the point that it is not preferable to have 333networks query other existing master servers, this option/feature CAN be disabled. I just happen to think that it is better to have those IPs in the database for when GameSpy permanently goes to sleep, than to shut out the admins that did not take the time to uplink to 333networks in time.

333networks stores the server list in the database. The masterserver/website hybrid then queries all addresses individually to get the server statistics (like server name, players, map) in the same way that UT does it. This information is stored in the database and shown on the site. When an UT client connects to this master server, it gets only the server address list in exactly the same way that UT gets the list from GameSpy or Epic. It also supports uplinks and downlinks from other games (like Deus Ex, Rune, and many more), but does not gather server statistics about these other games.


The other master version, "perlsqlite", is designed to be portable. It is easier to install/get running and lighter to run than postgresql (on my system, at least). It receives uplinks, it queries the other master and sends the server list to the UT client, just like the 333networks version. But not more than that: it does not query the individual servers for statistics. This version of the master server acts exactly like the same as the GameSpy, except that it can synchronize the server list with other master servers. This is the master server that I wrote to be hosted by others.

Both versions are open source, the 333networks version is specialized for the website, the perlsqlite version is specialized for doing its job as master server. Both come with a web interface (perl/TUWF) to see what's in the database.

TheDane wrote:Also, there is a setting to a server where you can select if your server gets advertised or not, how will this function on Darkelarious master server? Will it be removed from the database if you change that setting from True to False as it does with the current master server?
The GameSpy master server remembers your server for several hours. I don't know the exact time, for 333networks I set this time to 2.5 hours. When you disable your uplink, after that time the GameSpy master will no longer show your server, nor will 333networks.

The server will STILL show up at the website, though. If you want it removed, you can contact the 333networks admin (<-- me) and I will remove it. If this person is a hypocrite and wants it off 333networks' master server and site, but not off GameSpy, 333networks (the master/site only, not the perlsqlite version) gives you the option to blacklist your server. That means that it will no longer be queried, sent along the list with addresses or shown on the site. Right now, you need to contact me for that, but after this hectic master server period is over, I am planning to make this feature available on the website.

For now, I hope to have answered all questions, if not, everybody is welcome at previously linked IRC channel.


EDIT: I almost forgot about the F.A.Q. we're writing at http://333networks.com/faq
Last edited by Darkelarious on Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GameSpy closing down

Post by UT99.org »

billybill wrote:
noccer wrote: Example: You add your utserver to epic only, Gamespy clones the serverlist from epic. Does it mean Epic is untrustworthy, or Gamespy? What about Gametracker, Xfire etc.. Are they untrustworthy?
Is google untrustworthy because it shows thumbnails from other sites? Many sites never asked for it.
Well I'm not a hypocrite, but I would prefer not have robots querying my server just because I uplink to gamespy. If someone adds the server manually to gametracker and they hit me with robots so be it. A robot that starts those queries soon after the uplink and then never stops is not much different from port scanning
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Re: GameSpy closing down

Post by TheDane »

@Noccer, Higor and Flay:

I'm not gonna quote any of you and try and explain. The thing is that you misunderstand my post. I am literaly beeing bombarded by PM's about this issue, and as much as I want to stand on neutral ground, people ask me to take a stand on this topic, to post my opinion. I tried, and see now that I failed - failed at making myself clear - I am neutral - I don't take sides.

I returned to UT for the love of the game - not to take part in any rivalry or be any kind of refferee in any battle whatsoever. I want to be neutral - I TRY to be neutral, but I see that you see my post as a stand against Darkelarious - it is not. I have spoken privately with Darkelarious through a few brief PM's, I have told him where I stand and that haven't changed. The contents of any PM I send/recieve is private, hence Private Messages. I can explain that what I did was seaking the source to see what Darkelarious was up to - to follow the process, but cam to find myself an old fart as I weren't able to use this github system at all - I simply failed at retrieveing the source code. Darkelarious told me how it works and the basics of how he build the master server, from there I learned that it was written in a programming language I haven't touched yet - so - I didn't take it any further, therefore I do not know how it works and my own personal ethics about how I think a master server should work are not aimed towards Darkelarious - but me trying to put words to what I would accept from a private project. Bringing in other services to the Picture is in my view irrelevant - the mentioned services are coorporate business, so in my view it's a total different situation - but they do not all live up to my ethics - wich is why I don't use some of them personaly... but forget that, lets not debate such things.

Sorry if my post offended anyone. I didn't come back to UT with any kind of mission, but if I should take on a mission it would be to unite the community, but with all the rivalry going on I guess it's out of my limited powers to even begin to try. I have disabled my PM feature at the CP here, and I will do the same at my own forums - I need the peace and silence - I hope you understand. Posts at my own forum I will answer, other places I can't promise. Please carry on this debate and just forget my inputs - they will get be twisted in any way wanted regardless of how I try to explain myself.

Best of luck - and I hope Epic will continue the master server.

EDIT: Darkelarious and billybill posted while I was typing this - my post will remain unedited though.
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Re: GameSpy closing down

Post by papercoffee »

I'm glad that UT99.org is neutral ground. Where no one has to take up any side but can discuss things.

For the rumors ...rumors are the poison of any community.
The only known antidote are facts ...but like any antidote has the poisoned victim to take the facts and swallow/inject them or it won't work.
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Re: GameSpy closing down

Post by JackGriffin »

If you really want to take a stand and help the community Dark, how about you filter servers out using fake players to pad their count? Even if you can't do it via software there are many of us that will provide proof of use publicly and all you'd have to do is manually filter them.

It's a huge disservice to the people working their butts off playing and getting other people to play when I can simply add 10 fakes and overtake them in server rankings. This could finally force them to play fair.
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Re: GameSpy closing down

Post by Chamberly »

I don't get it... fake players? I know there are bots being advertised. But I don't think there is such thing as fake players.
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Re: GameSpy closing down

Post by Dr.Flay »

Don't worry Dane, I did not take your post as taking sides, I can see you just want to get to the bottom of things.
Thankyou, it was a very useful, and well worded way to present the issue as you see it, and is the best way to allow Darkelarious to defend his project.

My reply was aimed at everyone with concerns, not you in particular.

Actually thanks Jack for bringing up that issue. I think it got talked about a while back, but probably other things became more important.
I was chatting about this with noccer (I think) a couple of days ago, as we were discussing a certain CTF server with constant "players" that never sleep.

Indeed, Darkelarious can filtering fakes become a priority at the next useful point ?
This is a disease that has been around too long, and we are for the first time in a position to deal with it.

BTW. Cham, Thanks for showing your enjoyment of my silly little tale :D
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Re: GameSpy closing down

Post by JackGriffin »

Chamberly wrote: I don't think there is such thing as fake players.
They are bots but they list as real players, even going so far as to have varying pings. Join the top 5-10 UT servers (by playercount) at any given time and you'll encounter this problem before you finish the list. They don't even bother to rename the faked players and you can often see the same "bot-person" playing on more than one server at a time.

Servers who are shown to use this ought to be removed from the master server listing. Gametracker had no issue at all with doing this very thing and removed every server I and several others reported.
So long, and thanks for all the fish
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Re: GameSpy closing down

Post by Chamberly »

I guess it's a bit too far to take bots being advertised as player on a server list is a bit too serious? No big deal imo... but they aren't considered as fake players as a general idea, imo. Do you end up reporting the one with a bot tag on it? :P

Dr.Flay! Yw, anytime... I'm waiting to hear your next story. :agree1:
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Re: GameSpy closing down

Post by papercoffee »

Chamberly wrote:I guess it's a bit too far to take bots being advertised as player on a server list is a bit too serious? No big deal imo... but they aren't considered as fake players as a general idea, imo. Do you end up reporting the one with a bot tag on it? :P

Dr.Flay! Yw, anytime... I'm waiting to hear your next story. :agree1:
Fake players are not entirely bots ...they are stats which fake a player name and a ping ...but when you get on this kind of server is there no one, mostly not even bots.
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Re: GameSpy closing down

Post by Dr.Flay »

Well, guess what we talked about in the IRC ;)

Various methods could be used I guess, to both find and deal with them.
Darkelarious is leaning towards keeping it listed, but show the player count as 0.
If they get really crafty, I guess you'd have to look at keeping some sort of database running for certain player info.
A real human could not be seen for more than x amount of hours, unless they are hot-swapping players for an epic marathon.
Normal setup with bots, they don't show until you are in, so normal bots will have more time off the chart.
Also any server showing more than a certain amount of players for the facing worlds maps, should get filtered (with extreme prejudice).
Those dumb servers that only host CTF-Face, and with a player count of 20/16 are just there to make someone feel important.

If they then opt to only uplink to Epic to avoid being filtered, that also lends weight to the argument that using 333networks (or derivative) to aggregate the results from the other masters is a good thing, but still completely optional.

We have no control over Epic, or what they will or will not filter.
But we do have control of our own community powered masters. Anyone hosting a master will have the right to block who ever they see decide.
However this needs to stay evidence-based, or vendettas and recriminations will occur.
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Re: GameSpy closing down

Post by UT99.org »

billybill wrote:Since that's one of my servers, it's the 16/10 value throwing you off right? I can remove this. Do not care about being listed by 333networks or whatever, but if others see it as problematic. I re-wrote the query object to return bots and spectators correctly and as a result you get the total amount of all players. The 10 is the reserved for real player slots. The bots do show as Bot in the last column of the query and have a 0 ping. Even though it's a show of features, I would fully support Kelly's view... the ut3 browser works the same as mine and it's annoying as hell to find a real server, probably another reason that game is dead as a doornail. If I have it show the real value of players but still show the bots it would be confusing as well, non-standard browsers could have real trouble understanding. I'll do something with the server this week. The server was populated before the query object fix, the server name was well known far before that. In this case if you asked whether showing bots and spectators in the browser was increasing the over-all real player count I'd say probably not. However since you showed an interest and consider it perhaps unethical then yes I'll fix it. Once again do not care about 333networks and was considering blocking it's robots anyway
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Re: GameSpy closing down

Post by TheDane »

JackGriffin wrote:If you really want to take a stand and help the community Dark, how about you filter servers out using fake players to pad their count?
Yes, with Gametracker the server rank came into account again and the servers became flooded with fake players made only for the sole purpose to make the server rank higher on GT in order to draw more players to it - or is that so? Well not allways, I've seen servers with 32/32 players where each and every single one was a fake player, so yes the problem is real and though it's not as persistent for the time beeing it has been and will be again. So it's dead crucial that Darkelarious also deals with this. I've also myself posted these servers to GT and they have removed it, I stopped when I posted about one specific server only to find my post deleted for the third time but the server still listed, but it finaly looks like they have removed it's rank? : http://www.gametracker.com/server_info/8.9.8.142:7777/ woohooo!! finaly!

A legendary player ranking top 10 int the world once posted this: http://www.unrealadmin.org/forums/showt ... hp?t=31324 That's a Classic, and you should all read this just once in your life :loool:

But I'm thinking of reviving my little global stats project again - it was quite fun. So if any of you do have one of those bad scripts arround I would be glad to recieve a copy of it as I will be sure to sort servers running it out of the stats. For those of you who didn't see my stat project it was something simular to gametracker, but instead of ranking servers against each other, it ranked the individual players using a server side mod (sadly someone decided to hax it to screw things up - as usual), free of choice to use ofcause. But this ranking system ranked the players based on its own calcuations that where not affected by the server settings - meaning that a players score would be reflected on say a MH server in the exact same way regardless if the server was running a enforcer arena mod or had NWv1shotToKillEntireMapsMonsters. Also the stats where made to encourage players NOT to change their ACE ID's all the time as it was based upon them as identifiers - so change your ACE ID's and you start from scratch at the rankings. That will make a lot of cheaters to rethink using their cheats as cheats are loosers way to move up the ranks. And cheaters got it all wrong, they thing beeing a Winner is about winning the map - to be on top of the scoreboard when the game ends. You will see those sorry loosers be the ones to disconnect seconds before a map ends if they do not list as #1. The rest of us ofcause knows that a true winner are those of us who are lucky to find a crowded server running our favorite mod and beeing able to get a few hours of fun playing fair without cheaters popping by to ruin the fun - we are the real winners :tu:
ahem... ofcause beeing #1 at map end does hold some value hahahaa

So yes, I look at the server admins adding fake players to their servers with the same eyes as I look at those using cheats. Their goal is pretty much the same.
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Re: GameSpy closing down

Post by Dr.Flay »

:noidea Actually that was posted because of how clearly marked they are, rather than as an example of a bad server as there are far worse.
As long as people know what to expect there is no problem to the player.
And as long as stats are as true as possible, it is a level playing field.
16/10 wouldn't necessarily make me suspicious unless the map is small.
As long as people are happy with what they see on the page, don't feel you have to change anything.
Ideally the masterserver will just return accurate results, and filtering can be at the users discretion.

No it is the flagrant abuse visible here;
servers.png
A server that only hosts 1 small map has no businesses being set to 32 players.
If you join out of curiosity to find out how insane a spam-fest like that would be, you will not find that many bots there, so it is a double lie.

Dane, a stats project could actually provide some extra fun for the comunity beyond normal stats :tu:
Depending on the stats recorded you can present it in allsorts of ways, if the interactions between players etc. are also counted.
I'm thinking about the many and varied ways I can see the simple info recorded by Last.fm as I play my music.
A funky little relational DB would be cool.

I'm not a fan of these dumb awards given out for scratching your arse, but seeing who uses what relic or weapon most would be very cool.
How often they use a certain model or skin maybe.
How much % of the time they spend invisible etc.
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