First Maps (CTF)

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Re: First Maps (CTF)

Postby UnrealGGecko » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:45 am

Gonna give these a go next week, from the pics they seem pretty nice. :tu: :gj:
Looking forward for more!
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Re: First Maps (CTF)

Postby papercoffee » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:54 pm

Ok... nice maps. I tested them with default weapons and NW3 weapons.
Bots work well in both.
I used MrLoathsome's bot order fix and Nelsona's bot-path randomiser.

Rage:
Small map with only one very frontal way in. Yes the way splits up due to many obstacles but it's actually very straight forward.
The layout gets more interesting inside the bases, with a little Z-axis gameplay. But till you can even enter the base awaits you the opposing team right behind the doormat.
With two frontal entries are the chances very high that you get fragged in the moment you set foot in the enemy base.
What actually happened a lot. But with enough pressing you can make it into the base and better split up then to use the many ways to the flag to spread and weaken the opponents power.

One redundancy ...this boots are useless. If you try to use them you only bump into the ceiling and get smacked down.
review01.png


Fluxx:
Very open and wide map with a lot of Z-axis play. Some places look a little bit dull and the very long corridors are a feast for sniper/camper. But you have at least the opportunity to "sneak" around those sniper spots. All in all great gameplay in a very wide and sometimes dull map.
I have to test it with my RocketGib set up.
review02.png
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Re: First Maps (CTF)

Postby SkYlInE » Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:23 pm

papercoffee wrote:Ok... nice maps. I tested them with default weapons and NW3 weapons.
Bots work well in both.
I used MrLoathsome's bot order fix and Nelsona's bot-path randomiser.

Rage:
Small map with only one very frontal way in. Yes the way splits up due to many obstacles but it's actually very straight forward.
The layout gets more interesting inside the bases, with a little Z-axis gameplay. But till you can even enter the base awaits you the opposing team right behind the doormat.
With two frontal entries are the chances very high that you get fragged in the moment you set foot in the enemy base.
What actually happened a lot. But with enough pressing you can make it into the base and better split up then to use the many ways to the flag to spread and weaken the opponents power.

One redundancy ...this boots are useless. If you try to use them you only bump into the ceiling and get smacked down.
review01.png


Fluxx:
Very open and wide map with a lot of Z-axis play. Some places look a little bit dull and the very long corridors are a feast for sniper/camper. But you have at least the opportunity to "sneak" around those sniper spots. All in all great gameplay in a very wide and sometimes dull map.
I have to test it with my RocketGib set up.
review02.png


thank you for testing the maps and the fair result. I dont know why i chose the jumping boots on rage. I just wanted to fill the edge :lol: . And i didnt know that the height of the map is not that much.
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Re: First Maps (CTF)

Postby SkYlInE » Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:43 pm

i am really addicted of this map making and tried another one. It is small so you dont have to walk much to get the flag. With much people there can be a lot of action in there i think/hope.


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Re: First Maps (CTF)

Postby Swanky » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:22 am

sektor2111 wrote:Notes here:
When updating a map after first public release, maybe changing name it's a MUST not an option. The rest of discussions about generic names which anyone can use do seems pointless, no one cares. A G00gle search usually can reveal if exist another map with similar name or crawling a public redirect. Malformed names also might lead to an UnPlayable map On-Line if you are not following URL naming rules.
Small feed-back:
Reason for having so many PathNodes in CTF-Rage][ map for me is pointless. In mean-time, paths done at less than 50 UU each-other in the same spot are a nonsense.
For now map do looks suitable for some game-play - if paths are completely rebuild in Run-Time. There are not needed 279 PathNodes here, map has InventorySpot actors, 59 AlternatePath actors..., helping Navigation Network.


I have done that in the past and it was not a good idea. If you want to update things, I suggest you Change the zip file Name and include an appropriate readme file.
A different opinion here.

For first maps they don't look too bad. Haven't had the time to check either Editor or ingame but there's good bits here and there, namely traces of architecture, colored lighting, varied gameplay and coherent theme.
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Re: First Maps (CTF)

Postby sektor2111 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:02 pm

Naming maps is simple but I don't get why it must be pointed as a hard Task. Let's see some of my blabbering around subject.
Scenario >>
Original Map:
DM-StupidGenericName_Sk.unr - If this can be found as a buggy one a few days later after various tests, Mr.(/Mrs.) Mapper should fix that.
Fixed Map:
DM-StupidGenericName_Sk_rv1.unr - it's NOT Version 1 because Version 0 did not exist as map - it was just A BUG Not MAP; rv1 means revised once, was a bugged version but fixed - real Life Evidence MH-3072-FloorWays_rv1.unr running in a public Monster Gaming Server with multiple game-types.
Sk comes from my ID (or Ns) or whatever random "paranoia" of mine as long as "StupidGenericName" is used by at least 100 "Mappers" living on this Planet and even random Aliens felt on the Earth during a bugged teleportation process caused by Sun. Virtual/Real samples: DM-Roof DM-House DM-Horse DM-Hen DM-Rat DM-Potatoe DM-6 DM-9 and other dumb ideas like these based on IGNORANCE toward UT communities generally.

Strings having "Spaces" "Dots" and all that crap breaking URL targets and/or file access in various OS types are not in my inventory since the age when I've started using computers. If anyone thinks is cool to have a malformed name, I'll drop that file outta my yard at once with any new dependencies, very simple, some of these ideas were doing even disk errors here being written in another machine having a different language and code-page installed causing troubles - ADVANCED dudes were doing this and I had to do stunts for convincing Scandisk to fix crapped strings.

Aside If we talk about a very Large Success of map - community asking louder for a next one, Version 2 is introduced as follows:
DM-StupidGenericName_V2_Sk - Assuming mapper has gained experience from previous one and doesn't have bugs else we can repeat attaching rv1 to rv100. rv100 is probably useless, if nobody has fixed nothing until version 3 or 4 then all releases of another TRASH copies do not make any sense.
Explanations: SE - as Second Edition will need soon a TE - Third Edition and so on; for such cases V1 to V10 do looks more suitable.

These are not must have rules, we can fix an old map. Here can be attached "_R18" or such with meaning is redone with editing technology a la 2018 because it was a TRASH over-copied in multiple versions with NOTHING improved. Or "signing" the remade "_Sk_R18" and testing it properly, making it bug-free by default without messing up with a ton of later fixes. In account that a small bug might be solved nowadays without releasing a new map-file. If some mutator doesn't work well with it, Fix Mutator - because such maps might be more.

Feed-Back for this last CTF map: I don't like paths here - like I said before, it's only a guess work, multiple points in the same spot are pointless. I don't want to go evil but by taking a look over some of those 300k mapping contest maps, anyone can figure how to do paths for a decent engine load and it won't hurt anything. If Bot is not moving for flag there can be ONE problem and not a need for more load. if a single point is not correctly done causing DevPath to not work, the other entire load it's just useless.
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Re: First Maps (CTF)

Postby papercoffee » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:59 pm

sektor2111 wrote:and other dumb ideas like these based on IGNORANCE toward UT communities generally.

sektor2111 wrote:Here can be attached "_R18" or such with meaning is redone with editing technology a la 2018

You are talking about ignorance toward UT community but proof in the same post an ignorance toward the outside world.
Regarding R18 ...no Admin would put a map on his server with R18 in its name, when he tries to keep it family-friendly.
Or specific servers who provide adult/porn content maps will be disappointed. :wink:

SkYlInE already got the message and will avoid any miss-match issues.
So, Btt ...let's talk about his maps.
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Re: First Maps (CTF)

Postby sektor2111 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:37 pm

Referring to R18 R19 this is an opinion not a rule. This is not _(18) which do looks way different...

Referring to topic and maps....
sektor2111 wrote:Feed-Back for this last CTF map: I don't like paths here - like I said before, it's only a guess work, multiple points in the same spot are pointless. I don't want to go evil but by taking a look over some of those 300k mapping contest maps, anyone can figure how to do paths for a decent engine load and it won't hurt anything. If Bot is not moving for flag there can be ONE problem and not a need for more load. If a single point is not correctly done causing DevPath to not work, the other entire load it's just useless.
Here I've forgot to mention CTF game which I'm practicing with aggressive translocations performed by Bots and such over-loaded maps are not only forcing engine toward Bot "Path-Seeking" Load, but it's way messy to get killed without even to breath in seconds. Team-Work it's not forbidden, anyone can ask help if has troubles with paths.
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Re: First Maps (CTF)

Postby SkYlInE » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:22 pm

Team-Work it's not forbidden, anyone can ask help if has troubles with paths.


Tbh there is a question how to improve the bot paths. In this case (CTF-Schmall) what is to do that the bots will use the lower path? They use it sometimes when they are freelancing but not on attack Mode. Same for the sideways. Alternate paths didnt bring the effect i wanted to have.
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Re: First Maps (CTF)

Postby papercoffee » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:48 am

SkYlInE wrote:
Team-Work it's not forbidden, anyone can ask help if has troubles with paths.


Tbh there is a question how to improve the bot paths. In this case (CTF-Schmall) what is to do that the bots will use the lower path? They use it sometimes when they are freelancing but not on attack Mode. Same for the sideways. Alternate paths didnt bring the effect i wanted to have.

Bots are dumb... they need simple goals and guidance. And they have to "want".
Let's see

You totally over-pathed your small map:
Spoiler: show
Image


Those pathnodes are too close to inventory (weapons/health/armour) and player starts.
Pick-ups generate their own pathnode called inventory-spot, player-starts count already as their own pathnode, same goes for flag stands.
Spoiler: show
Image


This is a clusterfuck ...too much of everything on one place
Spoiler: show
Image


Too many pathnodes too close together and too close to the inventory (spot)
Spoiler: show
Image


Redundant pathnodes... see the red line between them? This tells you that bots won't use the path and can't "see"and reach the next node.
It's not always bad. but when you see a node only connected with red lines, then you know this node is unreachable for the bots.
Spoiler: show
Image


Bots won't use a path where they won't find something of interest ..or if the good stuff is too far away and means a detour.
Spoiler: show
Image


In a CTF game a Bot has three main goals take, defend, equip depending on the situation can the value of those goals vary, but equip has always the lesser value.
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Re: First Maps (CTF)

Postby sektor2111 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:24 pm

papercoffee wrote:Bots won't use a path where they won't find something of interest ..or if the good stuff is too far away and means a detour.

Umm... not entirely agree. Sometimes a flag carrier might go out of battle zones with Flag in order to keep game advantage in last minutes. In my CTF game such a coward is hunted and then paths in these spots have a very clear relevance. Do not deny these paths, they have their purpose. Even if pawn carrier is not touchable directly, Bot still has a key for figuring where is enemy. CTF game is a dynamic game from my side, me one I don't need to look at campers waiting to end game. Each spot must have a visible node, that simple. But this doesn't mean that we do need 10+ Nodes in the same zone just to "be sure" about good pathing. ALL problem in CTF games/maps usually is FLAG - read well, a lot of maps have this GAME GOAL messed up due to various "design" brain-farts. See last CMC "mapping" contest with some CTF crap (oops, I mean map) having some flag not reachable and then not even 2000 Nodes used in that map won't ever help if Flag is UnReachable. If Flag cannot be "seen" by Bot definitely if you have blue lines there, another factor is guilty not the number of nodes from map. A Blue Line might confirm that Path from Flag to nearest PathNode is navigable but not always vice-versa - from PathNode to Flag. This is Editor issue not showing all reachable stuff properly - that's why I wrote a builder tester for such a task but is not accurate 100% due to Engine reasons according to Editor environment.
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Re: First Maps (CTF)

Postby papercoffee » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:53 pm

sektor2111 wrote:Umm... not entirely agree. Sometimes a flag carrier might go out of battle zones with Flag in order to keep game advantage in last minutes.

Never noticed this on default bots ...they tend to use the directest path to their home base and won't use detours. It was often surprising to see a bot making the dumbest decision by going the straightest line despite the fact they got shot from behind. They had the possibility to use cover through a different rout ...but they denied it. That's why you have to guide them with "want" ...health vials are a good (and cheap) thing to get a bot into a path they normally won't use.

Bots are dumb, that's why I use MrLoathsome's bot-order fix and your path randomiser.
Your randomiser irritates me every time those Gasbags pop up at the start of the map...but that fits better in another thread.
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Re: First Maps (CTF)

Postby OjitroC » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:01 pm

papercoffee wrote: Your randomiser irritates me every time those Gasbags pop up at the start of the map...but that fits better in another thread.
Very quickly and not wishing to hijack the thread, the Gasbags are good as one can see right at the start-up of a map whether it is pathed or not (and whether or not any of the path nodes are movable).
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Re: First Maps (CTF)

Postby SkYlInE » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:10 pm

@ papercoffee

cheers for the good explanation of using pathnodes, actually i only had about 20 pathnodes in the beginning. Then i saw that the bots always use the same way. Thats why i put alternate paths (are they the same like a player start for the bots anyway?like player start is an replacement for a path node) and near the armor is full of stuff cause i wanted the bots to use different ways when they are returning with the flag and to attack from different sides. i read something in a tutorial that pathnodes have to put in the same line where the weapons or other stuff lies thats why i put them to the nearest or to the same height.
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Re: First Maps (CTF)

Postby sektor2111 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:42 pm

SkYlInE wrote:i read something in a tutorial that pathnodes have to put in the same line where the weapons or other stuff lies that's why i put them to the nearest or to the same height.
I don't know who was writing and what kind of tutorial, but I can quote a few notes written by the man responsable with this UT's A.I., Polge himself and not other sudden experts:
Polge wrote:Once the level geometry is complete, the level designer should fully map the level into the navigation network using PathNodes. Place PathNodes at intersections and turns so that there is as much clearance as possible from corners (at least 50 world units if possible). Paths need a line of sight to each other, clear to the width of the maximum width (2 * collisionradius) of creatures which will use this path. PathNodes should not be placed more than 700 units apart. Since PlayerStarts and Inventory will be placed on the navigation network, the designer can (and should) not place PathNodes where these other NavigationPoints can substitute. On stairs and ramps, the PathNodes should only be 350 units apart. The objective should be to use a minimum number of PathNodes to completely cover a level.
Aside, I can complete a few things - undocumented hints about pathing which Polge never described for some reasons or whatever goofing specific to Epic.
On ramps where geometry is clean of obstructions Nodes are working even beyond 512 UU - I did them even at 600+ and they are working properly. Nodes must be REACHABLE each-other not really always visible. A Teleporter doesn't always have visibility to other side like a LiftExit and LiftCenter but they are Reachable. Good...
Hint 2) Pathnodes and their system/concept has a base pawn "Skaarj" a fat-ass unable to get into spots where Bot can go because Bot is like a thin stick compared with Skaarj. As result PathNodes can be a bit adjusted according to Bot Collision and amazingly Editor will add paths there entirely usable as red as they are. In UT they added BotPack and Bot but they have left entire navigation concept primitive and not fixed - automated pathing system from Editor is something which I won't ever recommend.
Troubles with Paths in some ramps are coming from Node Collision VS Bot Collision, Pawn being unable to travel this node properly retrying that route forever, and default bot will never "shortcut" his "routecache[x]" actors in order to get over some screwed up spots. For extra great pathing stuff Higor did an Editor Add-On where mapper can gain control over paths better than with Editor's native methods. If a mapper goes more smart than is authorized is over-pathing map and moving Nodes which might head into a bad network, in a heavy load and looping spots. If you look at InventorySpot THAT is a sample of size addressing Bot, these are dedicated to Bot. If you can MyLevel some Nodes having that size you have some advantages in front of default PathNodes in how you can put them even in tiny spots. Bot has a collision 39 × 17 UU, if you will use a custom node having 40 × 20 that is definitely usable by Bot even if Editor might claim it RED (heavy path) heavy for Skaarj and the rest not for Bots or Human player (yeah, human is another story for another topic).
Hint 3) Paths can be tested if are valid even without Bots not only spectating Bots - read this well - except maps with WarpZoneMarkers (used by WarpZones) crashing game instantly (not my games) and or TranslocatorStart stuff which also is crashing at random. I did this testing multiple times and I have done even mutators testers for this task.
Polge wrote:Tweaking and Debugging the Navigation Network

After placing and "defining" the navigation network, the level designed should tweak and debug it by watching bots play the level. The designer should the game as a spectator, and add first one and then later several bots to the level. The designer can watch them play, advancing through the bot cameras using the fire button, and looking for problem areas. If the bot currently being viewed seems to be acting strangely, using the console command verbose will indicate what it is thinking. After the play session, reviewing the log file may also provide insight to problems.

If the bots don't seem to understand how to get to a certain destination, the designer can use the rememberspot and showpath console commands to look for breaks in the navigation network. When the rememberspot command is used, the current location is saved. Subsequent showpath commands will cause the best visible NavigationPoint on the path to the remembered location to become visible. If no NavigationPoint becomes visible, there is no valid path to the remembered location.

If a player cannot fit in the position specified by a PlayerStart, then the player cannot properly enter the game and will either wander as a spectator or the game will crash. The log file for that play session will have information on which PlayerStart caused the failure.
Note: UTPG "fixed" this On-Line debugging and here I mean they removed it rather than fixing it. In 451 can be used only in Stand-Alone games - Off-Line.
Hint 4) Custom nodes and/or custom zone settings might allow Editor to connect nodes in "heavy spots" but sometimes those can be traveled by Bots without issues.
Hint 5) DevPath in UT has hard-coded limitations but it do supports custom nodes able to Lock/Unlock paths with better effects than AlternatePath actors - MyLevel here, doable even by people less coders - like self person, I'm not really a programmer in Real Life, but writing conditional nodes is not hard and you'll be surprised to see how many options are here.
papercoffee wrote:Your randomiser irritates me every time those Gasbags pop up at the start of the map... but that fits better in another thread.
Like I said, I'm using that only for certain DM maps not for everything because that mutator doesn't have eyes and not even for myself it's not a must have everywhere. In any potential future version I won't remove those temporary checkers (not gasbags) they are saying/testing which node is suitable for being mobile so are the main mutator core and I want them VISIBLE - feel free to modify it in another way.
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