UT99.org EpicTown ShowDown - Get-Together Of The Century!

[sektor2111]

Finished mainly needed "Pawn-Paths" and only in desired special spots will be "Bot-Paths". I'm not a racist or something like that, map must be for all "Species" of course except JumpSpots (do I need a Replacement aiming flying pawns ?). This is a heavy management so far due to multiple directions and paths tracing from heavy spots in bad moments will still spread that "Brad Pit" message... lol:

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...
DevPath: 1000 navigation nodes searched from Ambushpoint21!
DevPath: 1000 navigation nodes searched from PathNode241!
Log: Breadth path list overflow from PathNode241
DevPath: 1000 navigation nodes searched from PathNode241!
DevPath: 1000 navigation nodes searched from PathNode241!
DevPath: 1000 navigation nodes searched from PathNode100!
DevPath: 1000 navigation nodes searched from PathNode600!
...

It is not spamming pages with entries but... is not silent here. Self Butt kick: MBot is aggressively scanning any potential enemies after finding itself a bit powered... TDM said: My Cannons are hunting you all.

DevPath charges:
- 1164 Navigation Actors - perhaps I need to find solutions for being more under 1000;
- 2949 reachSpecs - Still not nice combined into said Nodes number.

I had to implement some features in Mr. Garbage for disconnecting certain point without remapping ALL navigation chain but connecting point from the back with next point and leaving the rest of chain as Editor did it (...and me). All Lifts are suitable for 50×52 (Scout here) and Flags 1 = All WALKERS; and Teleporters too, for a better hunt.
Now I'm still looking for more or less aligned items trying to gain more in one single path - it's still too much for bad situations of DevPath.

[Gustavo6046]

Some polish could be nice. In fact, I suggest we work on the map together! Do some edits, save, upload, then the next person downloads and does the same, rinse and repeat. Together we can more! Greater, beyond, plus!

Good job looking into these cut corners, Sektor. You might be too rambly, but sometimes people overlook the amount of work you actually put into projects like this. Particularly extraordinary given that this game is over twenty years old, this game probably had its fair share of wet nightclub moments already, and it's kind of silent nowadays, especially regarding a silly map like this that almost nobody seems to actually play. Except, well, it seems that since I posted this thread here EVERYONE is playing the map, lol! Look at "Screenshots For Fun", several people posted specifically EpicTown screenshots!

[OjitroC]

Some polish could be nice. In fact, I suggest we work on the map together! Do some edits, save, upload, then the next person downloads and does the same, rinse and repeat. Together we can more! Greater, beyond, plus!

Interesting idea - depends what you mean by "polish" though - need to bear in mind two things :-
1 FNB's comment that the map load may need to be lightened to run smoothly online (and that changes to the map's geometry are risky); and
2 the need to ensure that any 'polish' does not have an adverse impact on the work done on the map by sektor.

[Gustavo6046]

1) FNB's comment that the map load may need to be lightened to run smoothly online (and that changes to the map's geometry are risky); and

That's kind of what I meant by polish, too. People will work on it and see if it works better online. Changes to the map geometry are risky, the other time I tried adding a single room with a lift with UnrealEd 2.2, and somehow I messed up other places of the level, like the texture alignment/rotation of the signs in each end of the Subway. BSP here is finnicky, mate!

2) The need to ensure that any 'polish' does not have an adverse impact on the work done on the map by sektor.

True, but I mean, he might want to maintain those changes he made to make sure they're not messed or something. Unlikely that they ever be if people don't touch specifically the things he was talking about. It should be fine, as long as we continue from sektor's last edits. (but where?)

[OjitroC]

That's kind of what I meant by polish, too. People will work on it and see if it works better online.

I'm still not clear what you had in mind - perhaps you could give an example or two of 'polishing' the map?

Yes, polishing would have to be done to sektor's version as that is/will be the only one that will work properly with bots online.

[sektor2111]

I don't recall exactly for which zoning reason I had to hit a rebuild... Oh well, already a semisolid surface where a vertex was not snapped at grid for Goblin reasons went out of collision - I could see this in how were paths build over there... claimed not that navigable. I solved the brush and re-build... another "stuff" was showing up (some flickering - else I think zoning and flickering made me to try a rebuild if memory doesn't cheat me). I decided to re-load on the table original 2A map and NEVER touching geometry. Definitely after teleporting through G227 some zones for Navigation Actors were let's say out of a zone - not affecting game but reporting some trash data. Then if map works this way I won't change anything here....

Okay, back to voodoo paths...
Since there are a LOT of directions, I think if I won't find a way to reduce these 1150 Navigation Points under 1000, those 12-20 spam lines are not going to be removed - original UT, XC does more rare lines like those... reachSpecs at this time are 2903 but there are too many combinations in paths seeking and they are moving over engine - in certain moments an UT Bot does crazy stuff...

Trains are killers and I removed self-attaching, seriously... - lol, cannons are killers, in any DM TDM game, lifts are "natural", only jumpy specials are... Bot specific assets. Else... green glasses from Stalwart area are - glasses and not green junks...

Future edits will not help at DevPath, more manual tweaks and XC tweaks are vanished if UT is engaged in building paths - these paths are for navigation not for editing them... And then... for NewNet Compatibility more paths are not going to help, at least I'm not aware how to reduce number of paths over teleporters and keeping things in engine's timing (46 Teleporters = 46 Shortcut Points × aprox. 2 reachSpecs each pair). I could use Lift Combos but they have 4 reachSpecs and 3 Navigation points for passing through, and this is exactly what I want removed. Already paths are looong, some of them over 1100 UU...
If I won't find what else can be removed, perhaps it's good for other inspection at geometry (whoever wants to do that) because I'll leave it as it is, XC_Engine can handle it and I think 469 too... I think I'll drop out what I've done at end of week, these days I'm a bit busy at my job and I have very few time for "buttonized" Editor.

[Gustavo6046]

I'm still not clear what you had in mind - perhaps you could give an example or two of 'polishing' the map?

To be honest, I wasn't sure either lol. I was imagining something like fixing the geometry up, fixing bugs and giving more purposes (with items and navpoints, not more rooms or detail) to areas of the level that are usually so quiet, like maybe that corner behind the construction site (because in the front there is jump boots; in the actual construction site there is already triple damage in a side and a redeemer in another because it is just such a big area, just like each of the other ones ... so that little corner could have... maybe a shield belt?)

Errrr..... you get the idea.

Trains are killers and I removed self-attaching, seriously... - lol, cannons are killers, in any DM TDM game, lifts are "natural", only jumpy specials are... Bot specific assets. Else... green glasses from Stalwart area are - glasses and not green junks...

The automatic turrets sadly don't kill red team players like they do the other teams. Welp, guess they like red team as much as I do, then!

[sektor2111]

The automatic turrets sadly don't kill red team players like they do the other teams.

Yap, in this edit they hunt everyone (okay... not monsters - that's hazard for plain UT).
For items replacements - those UT_JumpBoots from the box in construction area can be replaced with anything which might be missing, MapGarbage is remapping items into network without the need to rebuild/screw manual operations done at navigation network. Here can be used Fake Items just for causing more roaming in area, but that's next task doable by anyone having other ideas. Map already has around 2 Shields if I'm not mistaking, I'm not sure if it needs more.

By any matter for future needs I'll write a function for adding a Navigation point into navigation chain at user's request when such situation requires an add-on without ruining everything (adding a Playerstart or such). It will take in account a closer point in range and inserting it in chain after this one.

[OjitroC]

To be honest, I wasn't sure either lol. I was imagining something like fixing the geometry up, fixing bugs and giving more purposes (with items and navpoints, not more rooms or detail) to areas of the level that are usually so quiet, like maybe that corner behind the construction site

I see - but are there any issues with the geometry or any bugs (sektor has fixed the teleporters)? Isn't there a problem with adding navpoints and inventory as it can't be done in plain UT - rebuilding the paths will undo sektor's work, result in more navigation points (when less are needed) and potentially generate (more) '1000 navigation nodes searched' errors?

Isn't it best to give sektor's version an extensive trial online before considering further changes?

[Gustavo6046]

[/quote]
I see - but are there any issues with the geometry or any bugs (sektor has fixed the teleporters)? Isn't there a problem with adding navpoints and inventory as it can't be done in plain UT - rebuilding the paths will undo sektor's work, result in more navigation points (when less are needed) and potentially generate (more) '1000 navigation nodes searched' errors?

Isn't it best to give sektor's version an extensive trial online before considering further changes?
[/quote]

The teleporters were not working in some specific versions of NewNet. While it was probably possible to make them work better in those versions, the responsbiility would likely fall more on NewNet than in the teleporters, unless it can be proven said teleporters didn't work in vanilla either (and I mean like, only if bot teleporting doesn't work in multiplayer even without any NewNet, is that the blame can be absolutely lifted from it). Although kudos for making stuff work better anyways.

There aren't really geometry bugs, but there are many unsnapped vertices and other unsafe crevices, nooks and crannies, which I guess could use some tweaking, and I wonder how many solid brushes could actually be made semisolid (did FnB talk about this? I think he did?)

And yeah, I suppose we should use sektor's version for a while beforehand. Did he already release his version? I didn't notice if he did.

[sektor2111]

Here is done some version with paths tweaked more or less manually... Not for NewNet yet but other teleporters.

DM-XC-EpicTownV2A_rS2903.7z

If anything can be improved at geometry, I'm in as tester...

If things are going rammed and paths will need a rework (not very great) let's say we can have some network - anyway, all navigation points can be saved as they are, in case that are needed in the same way.

[FraGnBraG]

Hello everybody
Hope you are all well and safe!

I guess I should be flattered at the idea some folks might want to make this map server compatible!
I wish you all luck in that endeavor - you just might pull it off!

First of all, when I say good luck with this "project", that's not a diss.
You just have to grab the bull by the horns, so to speak.

*** Rebuilding the geometry is/was a bit of a process, as I recall ***
This could actually be better as a separate discussion...

Note that I did understand after a while, during the project construction, that the ET would not be 100% server compatible.
There was just too much of everything. I do recall UTA admins being kind enough to show me HOW my wonderful UP Orion's Curse
Assault map was killing the processing on one of their test servers - and that was a hella machine!

Alas, you gotta realize this was a grand experiment!? It still worked fine off-line, for the most part.
I even ran NaliWeapons on it - bit laggy but hey!

I decided a long time ago the work I have done in producing game levels is to give something to the community
and to give back to the community that has provided me with (still) endless entertainment - I have thousands of maps.
I haven't played them all, even after all these years. And I still get surprised at some of the crazy creativity!

So Y'all have my blessing for what it is worth

Okay, I did want to mention a few things after scanning through the thread:

1. Anything secktor says is truth! well, almost.

The pathode placement is a combination of things:
a. trying to be minimalist overall.
b. Trying to get a bot to go through tiny places or passages
c. Trying to more or less keep the pickups where they were in original maps
d. Trying to get spawns in all areas
e. trying to avoid "1000 pathnodes blah blah"

Getting EpicTown to all "mesh together" was very difficult. I think I achieved that.
"Gluing" everything together was quite a task - It is not exactly like lego, ya know?
I tried to not change the "Epic" brushes unless I had to, other than rotating whole groups.
Tons of realigning textures and adjusting shitty Ut product lighting, etc.

The main goal was to achieve a level of stability across the map - BUT - It was always known that BOT
pathing was going to be a problem. With regards to the little robots I had a LOT of help
with the pathing and testing by my TimeWarp buddy Deathox08 (aka XYZ8000) at the end of
the project, so there were two of us kicking at it, and that may have caused some "overlaying"
issues for nodes - dunno.

Swanky and some others in the contest ALSO put a lot of time into helping tests, which I was very
extremely thankful for (especially considering they had their own contest maps to work on as well!)

At the end, I was just damn happy to get through it and have a map to submit!

Well, enough about me

I'm around, feel free to poke me if you want...

Oh, one important thing, if you do want to alter the geometry, you must be very careful not to disturb surrounding brushes.

Editing: I'll try and summarize the approach (I did it this so, maybe you might want to also)
1. Map sections are in groups. Hide groups not being changed. Only edit the visible group
2. The visible group will usually have grid-setting of 8uu. Sometimes detail positioning will be 2, 4, 8, 16 or even 32. depends.
3. If you see unsnapped verts - DO NOT SNAP THEM. These are due to rotation or deliberate stand offs.
4. If you want to move the brush or surface - FIND THE ORIGIN POINT and move that. The origin is snapped at SOME grid setting.
5. IMPORTANT - The grid is different setting depending on groups/complexity. Just cause it looks off doesn't mean it is off.
6. Beware - if a brush was placed on grid 4uu, and the current grid is (example) 16uu, the snap points (origin or verts) will
appear to be floating or off grid. THEY ARE NOT! If you accidentally touch or click near a highlighted brush the brush could auto snap
to the nearest grid point which will cause the brush to "misalign", which when built changes the BSP result and cause ERROR.
7. So multiply these aspects of brush management in the editor, and you have a universe of potential breakage!!

So all that said, when I say be CAREFUL this is what I mean

Cheers

I'm around next week (xmas yay!)
maybe I'll catch up

Cheers
fnb

[sektor2111]

Yeah... good information with regard to 4 UU grid vs 16UU... anyway this has not much to do with Goblin and what it does... by example with Brush3477
Sequence

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          Begin Polygon Texture=plutonic_ceiling1 Flags=32
             Origin   -01536.000000,-00768.000000,-00015.999939

Let's say that when I've build the thing... Devs reported an invalid pathing spot because surface was out of collision demonstrating that what Buggie said with under 0.3 UU BSP ignored error is not very true. If Brush is slapped in trash by Goblin like that, it has already options for getting errors when map is being build. And a sum of errors are coming exactly from these 9999XX spots... + the rest of locations not very loved by semi-solids.

[FraGnBraG]

A few other points I should mention regarding building EpicTown in UED2:

2020-12-20_10-51-46.png

1. Zones and Ratio. These should _not_ change, unless you add or remove zone(s) or brush(es)
There exists often "false" zones. Avoidable, but sometimes not. And sometimes acceptible (as in not worth fixing).
Lots of reasons, but usually placement of semisolid "through" another surface or two - example putting some deco in a
corner, creating a "sealed space".

Semis are not supposed to care, but sometimes the "sealed space" is counted as a zone. Co-planer misalignment of a polygon can also
create a "sliver-zone". All these things can usually be found in Zone-Portal view. Anyways, If you have a zone count that's
staying the same every time you build then your CSG/BSP is "stable". This does not mean there won't be HOMs, holes or
collision errors. It just means the data is not changing.

2. Of course, if you hide groups to edit, then you have to remember to show the groups before you do a build. Makes sense.
Only build visible actors - like builder rooms or actors you want to keep but not include in the current build.
I do this just in case I forgot I hid something - easy to forget when you have many thousands of objects

3. At one point I was slamming these around with many different results (changes visible in zone/portal views)
-however- IIRC, I got better results -eventually- with just the default settings (15/70) and using a few "adjustment blocks"
and/or re-positioning several solid brushes in random patterns (see #6)

4. I usually leave these ON. However, I'm pretty sure there is no difference in lighting build if you do it separately.
Same with path network.

SOME MAPPING TIPS: IMO, Anyone making maps still should know this stuff - if not this is for you:
Note that there is a ritual of "ordering to last" that goes on before hitting the BUILD button, which ensures there's no excess
reach specs and stuff. Excess textures in Mylevel are culled as well, and all surfaces outside of play space visibility are set to
UNLIT and usually replaced with the ammo-count green texture so the lighting is more efficient.
Depending on player visibility circumstances, HSD can be replaced or removed - horrible waste of bytes when you can't even
see it. Note all these practices shave off tons of bytes from the final UNR size.

The epitomy of efficient mapping practices is found in some of the 300K maps - ya okay - extreme example

5. I ALWAYS use this dialog build button to "FULL BUILD" the map. I'm not sure the menu bar icon button does the same thing.
I think I was told to do it that way by some Planet unreal era GURU to always use the build dialog window when rebuilding the
CSG/BSP. You would think the menu button would share these build "settings". I never investigated.

6. This is an adjustment block. You reposition these around the map to cause changes to cuts.
Great way to fix terrain holes, actually

Anyways, just a few more thoughts...
Cheers

[sektor2111]

Not the last one... it's more about newer things.

It's not the first time when I see some "lights" attached to a train which... aren't very good looking ON-Line, at least in UT440 these are good or bad depending on where is Player spawned, it looks like Engine won't replicate aggressively actors far from player in other zones disregarding empowered relevance deals... + fascinating Mover properties vs Actor Movement.

In such case I wrote something like a portable light - red in the back and white in front of train, switching colors depending on train's movement. Here... it seems that XC_Engine is useful for making map to look normal ON-Line. Out of XC it's the same UT... and lights are like a cat trying to catch a mouse - behind the train or in front, depending on what Engine wants...

Right now I was reading about players taking screenshots - lol. I'm curious what sort of train-lights are there... Is somehow 469 better at replication at this point ?

Note that there is a ritual of "ordering to last" that goes on before hitting the BUILD button,

I practiced these stunts a few times in the past but... still having InventorySpot1000 as the first one... and then the total clean-up does some wrapping.

So... sliders are in default but... it needs more few settings (except paths - Editor does nothing good here).