Rope Ladders?

[Chrysaor]

I could use some help troubleshooting this AI or geometry issue.

I want to make a climbable rope ladder. Usually, when I've seen a ladder in UT, it's done with an invisible collision stair brush and flat ladder texture. TacOps did this a lot back in the day. It looked like you were climbing a ladder, but it was just a very steep invisible staircase.

The rope ladder in the picture lets the player climb straight out of the water and back onto the deck, but the bots won't use it. I've tried path nodes and liftexit/jumpspot/liftexit for pathing, and with geometry I've tried invisible collision hulls and invisible collision hull movers. But I can't get them to use the ladder.

They would use the ladder if the run (stair depth) is 16, but anything more than 8 doesn't feel like a ladder when used.

Any ideas?

[EvilGrins]

There's a pirate themed map (think in MonsterHunt) blanking on the name right now, that has rope ladders on it.

[Buggie]

Editor ignore movers. So you need place there lift combo manually, or place invisible collision hull, instead of movers.

[sektor2111]

It's already a similar story in forum with paths over stairs. Editor did not link paths normally in such "ramps". Luckily, Editor is too stupid for not being fooled.
Combos are always working if are normal. The next way is using a cube in that spot as a room which will be temporary "bWaterZone" - it's a "technical room" not for gaming. After building paths zone can be assigned normally - non-water - doesn't matter if it's mover in spot or anything else. In image posted there are no logic connections to the top of stairs - it doesn't work.
After adding said paths all next task is to check if Bot is climbing stair properly and won't get called a "HitWall" because in that moment it might go into a funky loop. Spot to me looks a heavy one, Bot will swim and then directly climbing. Paths are the very last issue here, Bot movement must be tested.

In other simple format - out of tricks, these paths can be connected manually a la 2022. It's what Editor should have in original... 227 already has such options not 100% controllable, but... for Bots should not be a problem.

Something I think is located here viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13211&start=45 discussion is a bit longer but that map it's somehow usable. So paths are not a problem but Engine Vs Bot can be a problem.

[Chrysaor]

Okay, thanks for the resources, guys. I'll try these techniques out and see if I can get it to work.

[Red_Fist]

Wow, glad to see you here, you were the more rational one at nalicity forums. (and nice)

There is the setting of Zdifferentialadd, property in the lift center, crank it up, see what happens.
And remove the 400 extracost so it acts like a regular node.

[sektor2111]

There is the setting of Zdifferentialadd

I'm not sure if that is needed out of a Mover-Lift. That one as I've read is concerning where to wait for Lift (in a lower spot when is about ramps), here is no lift, or else PainPath should be more relevant for roaming. Of course I'm referring to a combo done normally not incomplete like in other alleged maps.
Technically such a combo can be more widely used in certain spots where Editor refuses to help, doesn't matter if is about stairs, jumping from a Box to another, they have wider usage and... we do have more solutions for long bridges. Like I said, Paths are not a problem to connect even through walls - but no bot will move through walls, any here I repeat, movement capability must be checked, paths problems in fact are not a problem either.

And remove the 400 extracost so it acts like a regular node.

I'm afraid that a node has another value called "cost" not exposed directly for mapping, and I think you have to edit this one too - advanced actor editing is the task. MapGarbage builder can help here by altering these in bulk if all of them are selected, in no time.

[Red_Fist]

And no, setting a lift center to zero extracost, and using lift exits, a bot will unconditionally jump to their deaths. every time. lava, height, no matter what, they jump. AND they do the exact same thing in UT2004.

I thought it just made the bots think it's shorter or like they can see something is higher than the default.

I see a mover but i did not test the map or understand the problem very well.
But when it comes to UT they probably made it like and extra 32 units or a slight help to go up and see the next node. But not so steep. He wants it to feel like walking up a thing with steps, as opposed to just going up a smooth ramp.

I thought at first is was like climbing a rope. like rope climbing. until I see the pic.

[sektor2111]

And no, setting a lift center to zero extracost, and using lift exits, a bot will unconditionally jump to their deaths. every time. lava, height, no matter what, they jump. AND they do the exact same thing in UT2004.

I'm not sure about that. Engine says two things: IS a Path, or IS NOT a path - if mapper wants paths to death that's his problem not engine problem. They jump or not if route is there or no route, things in engine are not working randomly, is based on what is being connected or not connected - there are no "half" connections, unless we talk about non-player creatures discarded or not and not based on the color of their eyes.
Or we talk about some scripting for random routes which are off-topic in this stage.

[Que]

I tried working on a zoneinfo + gravity + y velocity to get bots up onto a ledge as per attached map concept.
but the bots refused to continue to pickups and kept trying to jump back down
I even put another zone at the top to force them onto the ledge in the y axis but there force is to great.
so theres that idea out.

in version 017 the vertical zoninfo extends above the platform on slight angle to bots can get over the lip and fall into the second zoneinfo which is supposed to force them back onto the ledge.

in version 017b i reduced the height of the vertical zoneinfo and extended the top one out over the ledge to pull them in.

neither works.. lol

[Red_Fist]

I have to see what this is about, geeez, killin me , LoLzzzz

[sektor2111]

I even put another zone at the top to force them onto the ledge in the y axis but there force is to great.
so theres that idea out.

This has no logic, forcing a gravity as ONE-WAY when Paths are Two-Way it's just abnormal. Desire tells to the Bot to go down for something and that screwed up zone is pushing them back. Excuse me but this is not the "how to" it's more like a "never do this". You already recommended this "solution" and later deleted post, now deleted idea has been moved. Two-way paths in a One Way gravity zone won't help with anything.
Either way this is not having anything to do with "Rope Ladders".

[Red_Fist]

I think the whole thing boils down to the same way you make bots walk on a mover way high up.

There is no floor, bots will not walk on nothing, so they just don't know and will only go near the edge. so the whole thing to them is zero reason to go there, or walk up on it. Plus the angle, we can't climb walls and they wont either.

so maybe try the temporary brush idea under that mover as if they think it's a ramp so the nodes will connect to the rest of the map , then the bots should walk up.

But we don't have the map or part of the map to see what is going on.

[sektor2111]

The same stairs problem was already posted and solved - doesn't matter if is about a mover or not, I can demonstrate that.

[Chrysaor]

Editor ignore movers. So you need place there lift combo manually, or place invisible collision hull, instead of movers.

Thank you. This worked for short ladders. They'll definitely scale a height of 128 uu. At 160, they struggled, and at 192 they couldn't do it anymore. But at least they tried. They weren't even trying with movers.

Wow, glad to see you here, you were the more rational one at nalicity forums. (and nice)

There is the setting of Zdifferentialadd, property in the lift center, crank it up, see what happens.
And remove the 400 extracost so it acts like a regular node.

Hey! Good to see a familiar face! I don't recall being very rational at the time, but that's nice of you to say.

I hadn't tried removing the 400 extra cost or changing the zdifferentialadd. Mixed results. Zdifferentialadd didn't seem to change their behavior. But lowering the extra cost worked alright. Instead of clearing 128, they regularly cleared 256, but not much higher and not fluidly. I think it's what sektor is saying with the "hit wall" thing. Even tho they now want to go there, they're just not sure how. Can't decide to run or jump. So close!

It's already a similar story in forum with paths over stairs. ... The next way is using a cube in that spot as a room which will be temporary "bWaterZone" ...

I think you're onto something here. They seem to treat the steep stairs like a ramp. They run into it, it's too steep, so they jump. They can't jump that high, so they start again. Lowering the extracost to 0 makes them try harder, but they're just not reading it correctly.

I considered a water zone, and Que had some good ideas in the map he posted, but it doesn't feel right. I think it would disorient the gamer even if the bots figured out how to get the pickup.

I tried working on a zoneinfo + gravity + y velocity to get bots up onto a ledge as per attached map concept.
but the bots refused to continue to pickups and kept trying to jump back down
I even put another zone at the top to force them onto the ledge in the y axis but there force is to great.
so theres that idea out.

Que, this is really clever. Too bad it didn't work, but thanks for the help! You're awesome.

out of tricks, these paths can be connected manually a la 2022...Something I think is located here viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13211&start=45 discussion is a bit longer but that map it's somehow usable.

I went back to this code example as a last resort. This was very promising at first because it worked on my test map for heights up to 768! But then I put the painpaths in my actual map and it didn't work. I had to reference fudgonauts's CTF-Panamax. Apparently, the bots prefer a stair height of 24 instead of 16 for this to work, which is so weird, but whatever. I moved all my invisible collision hulls around accordingly and everything worked well! It's not perfect, but they even climb out of the water straight onto the ladders.

Hat tip to you all! Really grateful for your help and advice.