[WIP] DM-DarkCastle

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papercoffee
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Re: [WIP] DM-DarkCastle

Post by papercoffee »

browndl wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:49 pm
papercoffee wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:37 am Why was MyLevel-ing so under used by those mappers at that time?
Probably because it was actively discouraged.
But why ...what was the supposed benefit of not putting the packages into the map?
This question is meant more general.

btw. I like castle and cathedral themed maps.
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Re: [WIP] DM-DarkCastle

Post by sektor2111 »

browndl wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:49 pm Probably because it was actively discouraged.
I doubt about that and I had reasons to believe that. We can do a short check. Asking alleged mappers aka map makers aka UNR file generators if they know how to drop assets in MyLevel (map itself means MyLevel). Point me the percent of mappers that know how to do it. Those suddenly addicted to a map making task but having not a damn clue about mapping generally, not reading any original tutorial and never opening stock maps for figuring whatever thing how was done - those are UT lolzers doing these issues happily motivated to do more such things and receiving greetings instead of recommendations to some mapping schooling and basics.
Mainly all old mappers had a start, but a start that was tested in closed environment and not really shared in public, reason was for delivering quality not lousy files.

Look, I did there a few cubes and added a new mismatch... Please, enjoy - this "please enjoy" sounds like a homeless asking mercy...
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Re: [WIP] DM-DarkCastle

Post by OjitroC »

sektor2111 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:19 pm Asking alleged mappers aka map makers aka UNR file generators if they know how to drop assets in MyLevel (map itself means MyLevel). Point me the percent of mappers that know how to do it. Those suddenly addicted to a map making task but having not a damn clue about mapping generally, not reading any original tutorial and never opening stock maps for figuring whatever thing how was done - those are UT lolzers doing these issues happily motivated to do more such things and receiving greetings instead of recommendations to some mapping schooling and basics.
I think you take it all too seriously - it's a game played for enjoyment. Of course many people who make (or made) maps don't know much about mapping - they do (or did) it because they enjoy doing it, because it is fun, because it is a hobby, a pastime.

Lots of people used the Editor simply because they could - I think we need to temper our criticism accordingly - point out problems by all means but don't assume that everyone should have (or should have had) the knowledge that the more experienced of us now have.

Putting stuff in MyLevel would have been discouraged because (a) people didn't know how to do it and/or (b) people didn't know how to use or extract those assets that were in MyLevel.
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Re: [WIP] DM-DarkCastle

Post by sektor2111 »

OjitroC wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:50 pm Putting stuff in MyLevel would have been discouraged because (a) people didn't know how to do it and/or (b) people didn't know how to use or extract those assets that were in MyLevel.
These are two directions. I don't know the "How To" is different from being discouraged/demotivated. The lack of knowledge and this "Hobby" was causing pain for server admins as they won't know what exactly is good and matching properly. Usually I don't go for a task which I cannot do, that's why learning is first thing in front of a "hobby" because this "fun" is causing headaches for others and this can be called "passive bulling". I'm releasing something as result of my Hobby and Fun and causing pain at others. And then, it's just fun for ONE.
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Re: [WIP] DM-DarkCastle

Post by browndl »

I was making maps back in '99 and 2000 and I recall putting many textures into mylevel being actively discouraged due to it making the single file so large. It was not a matter of not knowing how, you had to put at least one in for the screen shot. 1 or 2 textures was fine but if you were going to produce many then you were instructed to make a file. Even some of the Epic texture files only have a couple. It doesn't seem to be a big deal now, net speeds being what they are, so it is not a problem.
sektor2111 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:19 pm
browndl wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:49 pm Probably because it was actively discouraged.
I doubt about that and I had reasons to believe that.
Believe what you want to believe. I am just telling it the way I remember it.

And really the issue here is not so much about putting textures in mylevel as it should be about proper naming conventions.
UT99 DM-EchoCanyons:DM-WaterTreatment1565:DM-DSKilnWorks3993:DM-DSWashNDry:DM-DSRedDawn:DM-DSBacktoSchool:DM-DSTowerBridge:DM-DSDeadeyeCanyon:DM-DSSectionn8Refinery:DM-DeckardsRevenge:DM-DSStudio:DM-SniperTown:DM-ReturntotheKillingFields:DM-Wastelands:DM-TurboGen23:DM-LongForgotten:DOM-Dockside:CTF-enMakhana:CTF-UrbanSniper:CTF-CanyonWars:CTF-DSTowerBridge Unreal Badlands CiderTown UT99 Infiltration DM-INF-MagnumDocksDeluxe:DM-INF-MagnumDocks2:DM-INF-ReturntotheKillingFields:DM-INF-CityStorageLotA][:DM-INF-ColumbianDrugLord:EAS-INF-DS-RailBridge:DM-INF-ACityBlock:CTF-INF-SavageKillersHeadQuarters:CTF-INF-Capital:CTF-INF-ComplexB UT2003/04 DM-PineValley:DM-Koltoff:CTF-PawnsKeep:CTF-Ardimus Rainbow Six RavenShield AlleyStrike
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Re: [WIP] DM-DarkCastle

Post by sektor2111 »

In those times SPACE was a problem. Renting a server with a large HDD was expensive. I recall an old discussion concerning this problem. However, if you have a new Texture, download is logically THE SAME. You download map, and then you download the texture having even a small delay between the two downloads. If Texture is embedded, a single file is being downloaded and mainly is the same amount of data.
Either way... If said Texture was repeatedly touched by "owner", one of these pieces used later might cause issues, and this is the moment when adding those 3 used Textures in MyLevel is a better way than a mismatch, a borked image or a whole package with 12 Textures is being downloaded just for 3 surfaces when it comes to new files out of stock. I think we do have enough samples posted lasts years in this forum about these practices of altering packages because "I had to update my texture". Updating a file already released which is aiming Network gaming is completely wrong.

Self sample:
I used in 3072 map around 7 or 10 Textures from a package. Let's see... package shared was 700 MB. Why I would force new player to download a few MB of map and 700 MB of useless Textures ? I simply took what I needed returning 5.4 MB for download instead of 4 + 700 MB. Why would force player to take 700 MB of data just for the sake of downloading external packages because map would be too big ? I think 5.4 MB take less time to download and SPACE compared to 700+4 MB.

The rest of naming conventions seems mystical now days. "1on1" maps are suddenly aiming 3-5 Players and don't even follow old rules about 1on1 items. Reaction was "nice work", "keep up good work" etc. BS hands clapping. Mapping contests ? Hard to follow required rules for some of participants. Naming Conventions - this is already a joke.
Last edited by sektor2111 on Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: [WIP] DM-DarkCastle

Post by UnrealGGecko »

Man I just want a combined ChicoRuinsPack, probably one of my favorite texture packs and there's great maps that use multiple versions of that package.
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Re: [WIP] DM-DarkCastle

Post by sektor2111 »

Yeah, I have to admit that I really like some of them.
As result, required "Ruins" can go into Map and all pain is gone. Why the problem should be in attention even for 469 ? Because if Textures are different and two hosted maps are using the "Other Texture" and 3 maps are using initial Texture, perhaps it will be ugly to build server with two identical named Textures. I'm not aware about doing such things. And then ? And then two maps using whatever two separate "Quake" Textures can work in the same server because I simply merged the two Textures and being able to run maps without editing them. Yeah, Player loaded with "Quake" might have issues, not a big issue in 469, and neither for common player using XC_Engine. Perhaps was the last time when I altered Packages, I think in future for such issues I'll directly touch map doing things with no pain - it's not like I could see mappers returning for fixing their bugs - they have paths problems anyway, even if are called "FINAL" or such - those are NOT READY and any "Final" word used is another break of naming conventions.

If said map will have 3 MB added for Textures I don't think my machine will explode when I'll play map - actually I did not see any TNT package inside it when I cleaned the dust :noidea .
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Re: [WIP] DM-DarkCastle

Post by browndl »

Well, I certainly did not intend to spark an argument. I was just curious to look at the map. Which I still am unable to do. Apologies to anyone I offended.
I hope everyone has a fantastic day.
UT99 DM-EchoCanyons:DM-WaterTreatment1565:DM-DSKilnWorks3993:DM-DSWashNDry:DM-DSRedDawn:DM-DSBacktoSchool:DM-DSTowerBridge:DM-DSDeadeyeCanyon:DM-DSSectionn8Refinery:DM-DeckardsRevenge:DM-DSStudio:DM-SniperTown:DM-ReturntotheKillingFields:DM-Wastelands:DM-TurboGen23:DM-LongForgotten:DOM-Dockside:CTF-enMakhana:CTF-UrbanSniper:CTF-CanyonWars:CTF-DSTowerBridge Unreal Badlands CiderTown UT99 Infiltration DM-INF-MagnumDocksDeluxe:DM-INF-MagnumDocks2:DM-INF-ReturntotheKillingFields:DM-INF-CityStorageLotA][:DM-INF-ColumbianDrugLord:EAS-INF-DS-RailBridge:DM-INF-ACityBlock:CTF-INF-SavageKillersHeadQuarters:CTF-INF-Capital:CTF-INF-ComplexB UT2003/04 DM-PineValley:DM-Koltoff:CTF-PawnsKeep:CTF-Ardimus Rainbow Six RavenShield AlleyStrike
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Re: [WIP] DM-DarkCastle

Post by OjitroC »

browndl wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:33 pm Well, I certainly did not intend to spark an argument. I was just curious to look at the map. Which I still am unable to do. Apologies to anyone I offended.
I hope everyone has a fantastic day.
No, you didn't spark an argument.

Really odd that you can't play the map or open it in the Editor, even when using all the textures in the download zip. Equally odd that your Editor should be looking for a texture file that isn't used in the map.

Do you have WoTDetail.utx? If not, have you tried searching for it on UnrealArchive? If you do have it, have you tried moving it off the UT path and then trying the map?
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Re: [WIP] DM-DarkCastle

Post by browndl »

OjitroC wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 7:01 pm
browndl wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:33 pm Well, I certainly did not intend to spark an argument. I was just curious to look at the map. Which I still am unable to do. Apologies to anyone I offended.
I hope everyone has a fantastic day.
No, you didn't spark an argument.

Really odd that you can't play the map or open it in the Editor, even when using all the textures in the download zip. Equally odd that your Editor should be looking for a texture file that isn't used in the map.

Do you have WoTDetail.utx? If not, have you tried searching for it on UnrealArchive? If you do have it, have you tried moving it off the UT path and then trying the map?
I do not have WoTDetail.utx. And yes I searched there and did not find it. 
Auto merged new post submitted 51 minutes later
Got the WoTDetail.utx and was able to open the map.

I like the scale, it is HUGE. It is quite the undertaking.
I will be curious to see what type of gameplay you achieve.
I also like the fact that you can get on top of the highest areas. Nice.
I can't spend much time looking at it right now but I did notice a bsp error in the place I did look.
BSP.jpg
Look forward to seeing it as it moves closer to completion.

Thanks for letting me check it out.
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UT99 DM-EchoCanyons:DM-WaterTreatment1565:DM-DSKilnWorks3993:DM-DSWashNDry:DM-DSRedDawn:DM-DSBacktoSchool:DM-DSTowerBridge:DM-DSDeadeyeCanyon:DM-DSSectionn8Refinery:DM-DeckardsRevenge:DM-DSStudio:DM-SniperTown:DM-ReturntotheKillingFields:DM-Wastelands:DM-TurboGen23:DM-LongForgotten:DOM-Dockside:CTF-enMakhana:CTF-UrbanSniper:CTF-CanyonWars:CTF-DSTowerBridge Unreal Badlands CiderTown UT99 Infiltration DM-INF-MagnumDocksDeluxe:DM-INF-MagnumDocks2:DM-INF-ReturntotheKillingFields:DM-INF-CityStorageLotA][:DM-INF-ColumbianDrugLord:EAS-INF-DS-RailBridge:DM-INF-ACityBlock:CTF-INF-SavageKillersHeadQuarters:CTF-INF-Capital:CTF-INF-ComplexB UT2003/04 DM-PineValley:DM-Koltoff:CTF-PawnsKeep:CTF-Ardimus Rainbow Six RavenShield AlleyStrike
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Re: [WIP] DM-DarkCastle

Post by OjitroC »

Just worked out the relationship between ForsakenT.utx and WoTDetail.utx.

ForsakenT was originally used in WoT (Wheel of Time) as was WoTDetail - some of the textures in ForsakenT (but not all of them) have their DetailTexture as a texture from WoTDetail as in this example
" (Texture'WOTDetail.Detail.detail_stone')" - meaning that those textures will only 'work' if WoTDetail is also present - so looks like they were not imported correctly into ForsakenT (or that that didn't matter when the package was originally created).