MH-OperationBlackWidow

[Aspide]

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Link:

MH-OperationBlackWidowV1.1.zip

STORY:

Ever since the dead of the Skaarj Queen and the destruction of the Mothership the Skaarj have lost their superiority in the galaxy sparing humanity a horrible fate. However recent data has revealed that a Skaarj secret group is experimenting with cloning technology and they have all requirements to recreate the Skaarj Queen using the remains of the original. The good news is that this organization works in the dark which means the rest of the Skaarj species is unaware of this experiment so we won't have any unwanted attention, bad news is that the most recent info has revealed that the Queen has become active, however it still needs some time to regenerate so we must act fast. Your group will be deployed near a Fortress on Na Pali, somewhere near this fortification is a teleporter that allows you to access the spaceship that contains the Queen. Expect high resistance in your way so keep your eyes peeled. Good Luck, soldier.

PERSONAL NOTES:

This is my first Monster Hunt map, I'm a huge fan of Monster Hunt having played so many maps made by so many talented people. This level is difficult so don't play it by yourself, play it with bots if you are playing offline, speaking of which this level has 100% bot support which means the bots can finish the level all by themselves (if they survive of course), the bot support was a top priority for me since not that many MH maps have it. Also this map has four secrets, let's see if you can find them all

Changes in V1.1 :
-Fixed a compatibility issue with newer versions of Monster Hunt. Special Thanks to OjitroC for letting me know of that problem.

[OjitroC]

Sadly the map won't run in 469c using the latest version of MH (v613). This is the error :

Code: Select all

Log: Failed import: ArrayProperty ArrayProperty MonsterHunt.MonsterWaypoint.TriggerActor4 (file ../System/MonsterHunt.u)
Log: Failed import: ObjectProperty ObjectProperty MonsterHunt.MonsterWaypoint.TriggerActor4 (file ../System/MonsterHunt.u)
Warning: Failed to load MH-OperationBlackWidow.unr: Can't find ObjectProperty in file ObjectProperty MonsterHunt.MonsterWaypoint.TriggerActor4..
Warning: Failed to load "Level None.MyLevel": Can't find ObjectProperty in file ObjectProperty MonsterHunt.MonsterWaypoint.TriggerActor4..

   

Nor, indeed, does it run in 436 with MonsterHunt v613.

So, as the error message indicates, the issue is in the latest version of MH.

It might be an idea to incude the version of MH that you used to make the map in the download archive.

Obviously, TriggerActor4 is in the original MH and it is also in MH version 601 - not sure about versions after this.

Thus people need MH version 601 or earlier to run the map.

[Aspide]

Wow, I had no idea about that problem, I wasn't excepting that at all , thanks OjitroC for letting me know of that problem. The problem has been fixed, the map should be playable in all versions of Monster Hunt now. I had to be creative to fix the issue, the actor MonsterWaypoint was changed a lot as more versions of MH were made.

[EvilGrins]

Sadly the map won't run in 469c using the latest version of MH (v613). Nor, indeed, does it run in 436 with MonsterHunt v613.

Works for me.

[sektor2111]

I think I recommend here for future MH mapping (for everyone) to use original MonsterHunt and forgetting newer "rules" good to break all old compatibility and making a packages soup driving admins crazy.
Logic is simple: Use old MH. Does it work ? Yes ? Good, which means that you got a new MH map.
Compiling a MyLevel ? Yes, use version for coders coming from original package with original vars and functions - not vars removed and news added which prior versions are not using making a misery with null calls.

Edit: I forgot Logic #2
Pick a map like MH-Templar (or another good one) which was working normally for years. Look at logs what is being shown in "fixed/improved" versions of MonsterHunt. Lousy logs ? Then the borked fixes are borked, since these were working for years, is really that simple.

Logic #3 is a question: Why do I need to work for making a compatibility (not always easily doable) with a thing having variables (previously used) removed ?
Adding triggers since newer version has variables removed which now have to be completed by other actors ? Explain me why do we need this way and why is better to increase number of actors.

[OjitroC]

Works for me.

Indeed but the pertinent questions are (a) which version of Monster Hunt are you running and (b) which version of the map are you running?

I can be certain that you didn't run the original map with a version of Monster Hunt much later than 601 (as the actors noted earlier are not in later Monster Hunt versions). I can also be certain that if you are running the revised version of the map with MH 613 that it will work because it has been revised to work with all MH versions.

I think I recommend here for future MH mapping (for everyone) to use original MonsterHunt and forgetting newer "rules" good to break all old compatibility and making a packages soup driving admins crazy.

I am sure that is a sound recommendation ... however this map illustrates the consequences of following it.

The way to avoid these consequences is either to alter the map to make it playable with all versions of Monster Hunt, as Aspide has done here, or to state clearly in the readme which version of MonsterHunt was used to make the map and to include that version in the download archive. To do neither will simply limit the 'audience' for a map (which, of course, is fine if the mapper accepts that that will be case). If the mapper wants to reach a broad audience then clear communication is important - it is not enough to simply ignore the existence of later versions of Monster Hunt.

[EvilGrins]

which version of Monster Hunt are you running

MonsterHunt 5.3

and (b) which version of the map are you running?

Most recent version.

[sektor2111]

The way to avoid these consequences is either to alter the map to make it playable with all versions of Monster Hunt

Ahah, let's do then 100 versions and making map compatible with all of them... Good luck with that...
I would like to know some opinions when a variable was assigned, map worked 10 years and now is suddenly getting nowhere because those vars are not used and linkers to these objects are going nowhere... Sure this is the "How To" do updates...

[Barbie]

Nice work!
Some small issues I detected in your nice map:

1. Light318 is placed in the void
2. Better use version number also in the UNR file name to avoid mismatches.
3. Some CreatureFactories have a high Capacity of 999999999 but I noticed their destroyment in (5).
4. Instead of class'MyMoverCFKiller' you could have used a PropertyChanger. ;o)
5. LavaSliths close to lava should have the same ReduceDamageType as LavaZone.DamageType ('Burned' in this case).
6. Snipers in nest need a DistanceTrigger. Otherwise players can kill them with a rifle without any resistance.
7. Maybe consider using old Unreal weapons to fit the map style.
8. Trigger37 tries to kill pawns falling down, but some Skaarj survived and walkes on th eground. Maybe a TriggeredDeath or a deadly zone matches better. Also a lot of weapons are lying around there after failing tries of secret. ^^
9. Some players like to kill all monsters. But there is no way back after the antigrav tube.

Online playable now on Barbies Monsterhunt World.

[OjitroC]

A very enjoyable map - very impressive for a first MH map. Well designed and textured, good layout that naturally leads to the end goal - particularly like how the monsters are deployed with the monster types mostly in the types of environment one would expect to find them - none of the monsters are OTT in terms of health, etc which is refreshing to see - plenty of good, intense battles - so, as I say, highly enjoyable

Random personal views/observations (most just things to possibly think about in making further MH maps)
1) Stone Titans don't mix well with other 'pawns' - some of the krall were killed by boulders or by the Titan. In this kind of situation, you could spawn a group of krall (or whatever) on the death of the Titan;
2) Possibly a need for more health in the map?;
3) Berserkers don't mix well with anything, especially not other Berserkers - several were killed or fell to their death before I realised that there were Berserkers there though I could hear the splat sounds as they gibbed;
4) Probably best not to spawn other creatures in the vicinity of a Warlord (for the same general reason as the Titan);
5) There are some locations where you could have a few more small ambushes - skaarj warriors behind one or two big boxes, for example, though that may be somewhat cliched?
6) Some of the krall at the start spawned looking the wrong way and caused some damage to other krall when falling on them;
7) The Gasbags were the main creatures that were out of their natural enviroment - could have been placed/spawned in the open areas rather than in buildings;
8] Tentacles are out of place in buildings that are used/inhabited (in my view anyway);
9) Pathnode292 has no outgoing connections and can probably be removed;
10) No path to the Health Pack for the bots - not that that is a big deal, it being more important that Humans have high health;
11) Possibly not let down the main drawbridge until the LavaCavern entrance/exit has been opened - this section could be skipped without impacting completion of the rest of the map - not sure how important or not this is.

Ahah, let's do then 100 versions and making map compatible with all of them... Good luck with that...

I'm not saying that am I - that would be silly. However the map is now compatible with all versions of MonsterHunt.u so there's now no issue.

However you quote selectively from what I said - I'm talking about what to do when a map is compatible with some early versions of MonsterHunt.u but not with some later versions - nothing more, nothing less - what you have quoted is one alternative - the other alternative I suggest is also a solution is it not? As I say, the worst and most unproductive approach is to ignore the existence of later (or indeed earlier) versions of MonsterHunt.u.

[EvilGrins]

Usually what's best for any MH map is to not identify it with any specific version. That way no matter what version anyone has, they'll be able to play it.

[sektor2111]

As I say, the worst and most unproductive approach is to ignore the existence of later (or indeed earlier) versions of MonsterHunt.u.

Ignoring the most recent "software" was a good practice in UT. Example: Editor from 451.
Let's see something similar or closer...

4) Probably best not to spawn other creatures in the vicinity of a Warlord (for the same general reason as the Titan);

You see ? This problem is mainly solved in other versions executed 5-8 years ago prior to the "most recent" MonsterHunt. Any reason to do an update which is reverting monster damage/attack back ? NO Reason. It's just ruining the fun and the purpose: Kill monsters don't wait them to kill themselves.

Berserker ? Yes it's a stock problem - this is why I don't recommend stock "packages" for MonsterHunt, they are useless.

However the map is now compatible with all versions of MonsterHunt.u so there's now no issue

Other observation in case that it escaped, "Is Now" does not means that "It Will Be" for next updates - taking in account how are updated things. Also subject was tackled by Aspide because he can do some scripting (has custom classes in MyLevel) - let's see how many MH mappers can script things properly...
When MH mapping will require "coding" skill for making things operational to me this is wrong.

Now I'll take a tour in game - I could see pathing already in Editor, eh....

Edit: Game Play feed-back - Using Bots.
A.I. stuff
Missing "BlockedPath", sometimes (seldom) Bot tried to get over bridges that are not lowered and attempting to open them through wall. Access should be stopped until bridges are lowered.
In last Spawn Spot (as like at begin) map lacks in ammo - definitely I won't go through monsters for reloading weaponry. Advantage DispersionPistol which I defaulted in mod... .
Other issues concerning Monsters doesn't exist in my environment so map is good for a public Server. The rest of needs are easily doable in patch plugins working more or less random, or maybe injecting them in some edit - or maybe not... because of extra server stuff that makes action different...
Except what I mentioned, on the other hand map is almost perfect .
I think I can have a drink for this work.

[Red_Fist]

In my opinion I will stick to all old versions for mapping, including UT. If there was 10 million maps for the older things, and 10,000 maps for the newer thing. I want my map to be played, like the greater number of maps.

Same way we can't use Unreal as UT, just stay with Unreal, so we at least got OldSkool to help, because the old old Unreal stuff still works in the new thing.

My only criticism is, ANY NEW VERSION ALL OLD STUFF SHOULD STAY WORKING,,,PERIOD. otherwise it is not a new upgrade that works and coded properly. Oldskool is a perfect example, all we did was download it, and install, bingo everything still worked, now that is what I call a real upgrade.

[sektor2111]

Bingo ! RedFist got the point.

Let me explain what was about. When Bot has a goal it will go there ignoring the rest of nearby things - buttons/levers more specific.
As result, initial MonsterWayPoint was using a set of goals described inside as variables making Bot to use these buttons - to do the mission more exactly.
In updated version these have been removed, explanations for removal being hilarious. Now let's see, older maps have linkers and data concerning variables that now are nowhere (aren't these heading to unexpected corruptions ?) - mainly objectives are no longer achieved, to not forget that initial order of objectives established which now is different set - to me it looks like all work around against Bot. Why doing things this way ?
Next... Mods connected with these vars or copying data from them for updated assets will copy data from nowhere... Interesting updating methods, right ?
At least map works, has a decent load (okay okay not more zoning but...) I tested it ON-Line with Bots, except the lack of BlockedPath (not a critical point) at bridges, the rest works perfect. Aspide made a smart move, using custom subclass of MonsterWaypoint.
Going back to "is now compatible with all MH versions". Let me see what will be here when next updates will have MonsterwayPoint removed . Let me answer properly: Map won't run anymore, just like that. If this is the way of updates, you lost me from this chapter. My Mods were not removing anything, just using them properly with sanity checks, and it's all NORMAL. An updated version could be a SUBCLASS with extra packages recognized by update and... nothing would be affected, old mod will work as it knows, updated versions will deal with news (objectives, methods, etc.). NavAdder works this way: package is found, get it loaded (and package will work itself autonomously), nothing found nothing loaded. Old 503 can have loaded a new package - won't run it because it's unknown, map working normally. New mod will see the new thing and will trigger it to run. To not forget that extra-packages can go in main configuration file allowing different updates without any mismatch version, just adding Pckv1, Pckv2, etc.

[Red_Fist]

(I been messing with the waypoint and propertyflippers) Still working on this map, it's working good too.