What abot to unite UT and Unreal?

[Torax]

I dunno was here a similar topic or so so i'm voting for the new discussion.

Last few days at work i was thinking about this question.
I'm watching for the storyline of those games nearly since beginning (as i started playing Unreal in early 2000).
Through the years, there was created uncountable amount of content for both of those games. Maps, mods, gametypes, mutators, total conversions, some of them silly, some of them - extremely popular etc..
In the middle age of this story - Epic's gived a chance to improve this game a bit, leaving it's original spirit and gameplay. With their decision Unreal 227 patch was born, which gave improved stability, network sequrity and much more possibilities for creating custom content. And i really liked it.
That was a small synopsis for the newbies which may appear.

So what is the actual problem to make one game from two games? Network compatibility? Version difference? Difference in native code? Content creation?

As for network question, i was rarely confused when i'd found an Unreal coop server somewhere at UT DM server tab and was able to connect there and play coop, actually playing Unreal through UT without installed oldskool mod or something that makes this possible to be
I just downloaded maps and some custom content and played as usual.

This topic is not about words kinda "this game is over 100500 years old", "noone will play", "UT4 is coming", "i prefer to play Battlefield\UT2004\UT3\UT4 or whatever", "this idea doomed to fail" etc..
So please..

I want to hear your thoughts fortified with facts.

[Higor]

Can be done, provided we get sources from Epic.

[Torax]

Can be done, provided we get sources from Epic.

First and somewhat rarely important pros for this.

Actually this is a bit controversial idea - Smirf worked with a really small amount of people, and he get sources under promise hold them only in his hands, and maybe in hands of few people such as Dot's, Raven and few others who worked directly over creation of 227 patch. So there is no any guarantees that community will take a hand on it. Except very concentrated and small team of developers. Even without sources, uniting will give much more possibilities for any idea.

But sources is not a goal of this idea at all.
The goal is to unite both of the communities and work together. I believe there are a lot awesome programmers still exist in our comunity, a lot of cool programmers in Unreal 1 communities and so. Why we and they sitting separately?

In my opinion, Epic made a VERY big mistake by killing singleplayer in next incarnations of the game, and put their eye at engine improvements, what caused lack of time to create new storylines.
Unreal was absolutely balanced in this question.
Wanna LAN and network coop parties? Go on, start a server, download one of dozens awesome map stories, throw some nicely made content packs and/or mutators, invite your friends and other players and you're on.
Wanna some hilarious arena-style action? You're welcome - show your skills, join the tournaments, build a throne from skulls and guts of your enemies and show that you are only The One, the Boss of Unreal Universe.
Tired of all or forgot to pay for internet connection? No problem, configure bots, start up Bot Session and kick their ass. Or again - launch any of custom Unreal stories, take some beer and sausages in closest supermarket and dive into strange, weird, mythical worlds, trying to unravel puzzles of Vandora or any others.
Cant find something you need? Don't worry - launch an editor and create thing you need yourself - map, weapon, item, mutator, gametype, storyline or whatever you can imagine.

Perfectly. And absolutely versatile.

[papercoffee]

Why we and they sitting separately

Because they don't like to shoot each other and we don't like to walk an hour to shoot some Skaarj....
This comment was brought to you by Brainfart inc.

To be true, I don't know why our communities are still separated like this.

[Carbon]

Well, aside from facts (whatever they might be) one just has to ask why. Why do it? We have both game experiences already and neither is problematic. Uniting them would just be a 'neat' thing to do, but of no real use. Convenience? Both games launch and close pretty darn fast on new hardware! Almost seamless.

Anyhow, the skills and time for such an undertaking could be put to much better use.

For example, (probably many are already aware of this) over at the official UT forums, some dedicated and talented people are working on an Unreal remake in UE4. This is exactly where expertise and input are needed.

I am not a coder or anything, but if I were so inclined I would do something for a very meaningful and substantial project that is already underway and the contributors seem pretty serious about getting it done well.

Worth checking out and maybe kicking in your visions and ideas for the project.

For UT, well, we have a new one underway and again, if I had the skills, I would be helping to make that as good as it can be.

The communities are separated more due to particular dedication than to any idea of exclusion. Unreal is a very different game than UT and brought forth different types of people.

Imagine if you didn't like UT. It was not at all like Unreal. Imagine how those who dove into Unreal and RTNP felt when the next game - and every game since - has been a deathmatch arena shooter.

Anyhow...

Nobody closes any doors on one another and the sites do have a fair bit of crosstalk and dual members. I don't think the communities are as polarized as you say.

[Torax]

Well i somewhat agree with you about the UT4.

But actually i don't very believe in sucsess of UT4. There are a lot of opinions about development, vision of ready game and so on. Someone don't like new models, someone don't like movement, somebody don't see any needs in cinematic effects which are mostly will be turned off in net plays. I know that many pro gamers of UT playing with lowest visual settings to maximize framerate, performance and smoothness. And much more other stuff that brings disputes.
And i'm ever not talking now about system requirements of ready game - that's another question and story.

The idea about to unite UT and Unreal is about to give more abilities to expand the game.
You think engine is old, totally bugged and dont even have a chance to put an eye at it? Go to ModDB and list few pages of news - notice mods for old Doom, Half Life or such things like those. Notice mods based on awkward looking oldschool engines. And people like them. And development for such games still exists. Why Unreal having not less beautiful engine (sure much more beautiful than old Doom's pseudo engine), don't have such level of developments? What was the reason to create 227 patch if noone will use it or it will be used by only very small amount of people? Developers knew that UEngine is dying but they CREATED this patch.
Smirf and others gived an instrument. Why not to use it properly?

It is not so hard to move nearly all needed stuff from UT into Unreal. BotPack for example is already recompiled what allowed to use most of UT maps in Unreal without any problems. I can't see any impossible things to do that. Yeah there can be some things wich will a pain in the ass to do, but still possible to do. The idea itself is not so hard to implement. The best thing is needed - announcements. A lot of announcements in every possible place. Even it is not so as hard to find interested developrers in global communities. To let people know that Unreal is still alive.

If think in other way, Epic's may change few their decisions about UEngine 1 if they will se that communities still doing something. Because as we doing something, we add popularity to Epic themselves kinda "look guys, we are not using opensource ID Tech 3 (or 4) engine, nor Source Engine, nor Cry Engine or Unity Engine - we still faithful to old Unreal and UT"
This is one more pros to the main idea.

Sorry if my words sounds somewhat challengingly or with taste of anger and\or hatred
I dont mean anything of that)

EDIT
As for me i see nearly unlimited possibilities coming for this. We have enough power and strength to change this game in something much more greater.

[Carbon]

I don't get anything negative from your post, but I also don't see a reason for doing it. You say "expand the game", but how exactly? How will merging these two games expand them anymore than each one will to the other?

And I didn't say that UE1 wasn't worth developing on.

[Torax]

Under "expanding" i mean to "take the best of" things, abilities and content from both of them.

I know probably what you can say - not so many people will take a look at old game when they can make something for UT4. Yeah.
But anyways...there are a lot of things can be done to change gameplay of old unreal. And without necessity to improve PC or use cutoff cinematic graphics.
And doing it is much more easier than doing the same for UT4. This is obviously.

[papercoffee]

Well,
...you CAN expand the capability of Unreal (they already took the compatible parts of UT and used it) because the source is semi-free. But less people use the expanded capability.
Their are many hardcore fans who don't like their Unreal enhanced.

...you CAN'T expand the capability of UT without manipulating from outside the engine (on a complicated way), because the source is not free. And lesser people are around who could use the expanded capability.
Despite the fact that hardcore fans would love their UT enhanced.

Edit-------------

Spoiler

Hopefully, after UT4 is not based on U-script, will Epic release the U1 engine for free.

[Higor]

Well,
...you CAN expand the capability of Unreal (they already took the compatible parts of UT and used it) because the source is semi-free. But less people use the expanded capability.
Their are many hardcore fans who don't like their Unreal enhanced.

...you CAN'T expand the capability of UT without manipulating from outside the engine (on a complicated way), because the source is not free. And lesser people are around who could use the expanded capability.
Despite the fact that hardcore fans would love their UT enhanced.

Truer words have never been spoken on this particular issue.
It is also a paradox that the most knowledgeable and capable coders are on Unreal instead of UT, one of my efforts to change that is educating and exposing as much as I can considering I don't even have the game's actual source.

[EvilGrins]

Why we and they sitting separately

Because they don't like to shoot each other and we don't like to walk an hour to shoot some Skaarj

Then let's compromise. We make a new version where players are given no weapons at all and the Skaarj hunt them down.

Whoever doesn't get torn to shreds and eaten by the Skaarj the longest, wins!

[Torax]

Besides nice idea for a gametype, EvilGrins

Well..
Papercoffee answered the question i put in theme of this thread pretty well. If i correctly understood his words.

There is no hard difference between Unreal and UT, if not talk about today's possibilities and some other details related to those games.

[Carbon]

I know probably what you can say - not so many people will take a look at old game when they can make something for UT4. Yeah.

Nope, didn't say that either. In fact, I said nothing against it but just wondered what the exact point is for doing this. To be clear: I love UE1 and believe it has both legs and life still. I am absolutely, completely pro-development of content for the engine and Unreal series in particular. What I do question is using the valuable time and energy of those who have the skills and vision to create new things spent on merging two games.

That's all. If you want to do it, great!

[Spectra]

I said nothing against it but just wondered what the exact point is for doing this.

For Fun

But I still don't see the objectives or goals of this idea. Is it like improve the GamePlay?? or new Gametypes or rules?? or visual effects?? Is it going to be a TC mod??

Better explain with an example.

[Torax]

Okay
The main objective of this idea - unite communities and their talented people to work together for one game.

Another reason - possibilities for expanding and modification.
As for me i'm currently stuck with my remodelling project - the reason is that in UT2k4 weapon models have some animations based on specific code related to skeletal models.
The functions about GetBoneLocation, GetBoneRotation, AttachToBone and so.
Unreal Tournament does not have such script functions, while Unreal 1 does.

Those are two the most important results if this idea will be realized.

But it seems that i'm only the one idiot who thought about this...