Discussion about consideration as "best maps made by community"

Discussions about UT99
User avatar
sektor2111
Godlike
Posts: 4624
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: On the roof.

Discussion about consideration as "best maps made by community"

Post by sektor2111 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:25 am

Can I point up other stuff ?
DM-Pressure - it's a stock map having that "TrapSpringer".
For the record, it's wrong set as TrapSpringer does a self-hacking. If you are copying setup from Pressure, it's not a good idea and it might not work well. Okay, okay, sure "best maps"... no wonder... :sleep: .

Code: Select all

function PostBeginPlay()
{
	local int num;
	local Actor A;

	// hack fix for DM-Pressure
	if ( TrapTag == 'DisFat' )
		TrapTag = 'dapressurezone';

	Super.PostBeginPlay();
		DrawType = DT_None;

	if ( (TrapTag == '') || (TriggerTag == '') ) //Lol None traps
	{
		Destroy();
		return;
	}
....
....
Explanations bellow
Condition TrapTag == '' is accomplished as long as it's not defined and then TrapSpringer is removed...
The rest is... SpecialDamage... another stuff which Epic has forgot to finish...
Then I apology for miss-understanding what is about. I thought that best maps by community means good maps properly executed having only small flaws added by Editor not by mappers, but it's not what I was thinking and I won't check this topic too soon.

User avatar
Swanky
Adept
Posts: 400
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:06 pm
Personal rank: Brush Commander
Location: inside ze bocks
Contact:

Re: MAPS - the best maps made by community

Post by Swanky » Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:05 pm

Might better work for the community patch as it can be included in a fix there.

User avatar
Neon_Knight
Average
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:31 pm
Location: Junín (BA - Argentina)
Contact:

Re: MAPS - the best maps made by community

Post by Neon_Knight » Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:56 pm

I've been told that official map fixes that require a direct modification to the .unr files won't make the cut for v469 due to a requirement of keeping compatibility with v436.
Official (?) U1 v227/UT v469 .int and spanish localization fixer/maintainer. - Unreal Wiki
"Practice good sportsmanship. You were a n00b once, too." - UT3 Loading Screen
"Level Designers are 1 part architect, 1 part artist, 1 part game designer, and 1 part beta tester!" - Cliff Bleszinski
"The ratio of critics to creators is something like 10,000:1. The ratio of good critics to bad: 1:10,000." - Fast Eddie
"The projects that never start are the projects with the "idea man" as the leader." - Brandon "GreenMarine" Reinhart

User avatar
Swanky
Adept
Posts: 400
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:06 pm
Personal rank: Brush Commander
Location: inside ze bocks
Contact:

Re: MAPS - the best maps made by community

Post by Swanky » Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:59 pm

Could be saved as a separate file, so people would still have the .436 version and the fixed on top. Not the best solution but a solution nonetheless. In any event, it doesn't really belong into the best community maps. ;)

User avatar
OjitroC
Godlike
Posts: 1686
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:46 pm

Re: MAPS - the best maps made by community

Post by OjitroC » Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:36 pm

Neon_Knight wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:56 pm
I've been told that official map fixes that require a direct modification to the .unr files won't make the cut for v469 due to a requirement of keeping compatibility with v436.
At the risk of derailing the thread - I'm sorry but I don't quite understand that. If fixing the official maps means using some 'feature' only in v469 then surely any maps made with 469 are not going to be compatible (playable) with previous UT versions?

User avatar
Swanky
Adept
Posts: 400
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:06 pm
Personal rank: Brush Commander
Location: inside ze bocks
Contact:

Re: MAPS - the best maps made by community

Post by Swanky » Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:45 pm

No it doesn't use any special features. But the files would be different (change date, sizes) because of the changes made to fix the map (like, even adding a path node), so there'd be a mismatch for online games. People with v436 would have a different file than v469 users.

Buggie
Experienced
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:32 am

Re: MAPS - the best maps made by community

Post by Buggie » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:10 pm

Neon_Knight wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:56 pm
I've been told that official map fixes that require a direct modification to the .unr files won't make the cut for v469 due to a requirement of keeping compatibility with v436.
Depends what you want fix. If you want fix only server stuff like bot pathes you can make fix binary compatible with old version via "ucc conform".
Caveats can be in anticheats, because md5 will be different.

User avatar
papercoffee
Godlike
Posts: 9653
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:36 am
Personal rank: coffee addicted !!!
Location: Cologne, the city with the big cathedral.
Contact:

Re: MAPS - the best maps made by community

Post by papercoffee » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:58 pm

Guys ...wong thead.
Post at least some nice maps when you have to discuss off-topic stuff.


I split the Topic into.

User avatar
sektor2111
Godlike
Posts: 4624
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: On the roof.

Re: MAPS - the best maps made by community

Post by sektor2111 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:03 pm

Fixing authoritative things is possible at server level without affecting any client. This is already done - demonstrated - by XC stuff creating paths in run-time. All the rest are common assets, Server Side it's just Server Side. Servers have ServerActors which are not doing more things in clients, only stuff causing replication data after all.

Then DM-TimeCrash has TWO TrapSpringer actors.
Feel free to do following experiment: Start map Alone (practice session) and after starting match, happy and relaxed input the following command in console "cheatview TrapSpringer". I'll bet on 10$ that you won't see anything. Triggering mechanics are working for human player but we don't have too much Bot activity, perhaps only by chance in a combat whatever random situation. I'm not curious about original map with thousands of reachSpecs. I see that it's possible to reduce the charge under 1000 reachSpecs still without doing manual paths removal where these might be too many... Perhaps map is well navigable having around 900 reachSpecs + Lifts properly tuned and also removing bHighShadowsDetail for portals because are invisible anyway and such settings don't have any single purpose, optional removing red brush builder as long as it has no use.

User avatar
OjitroC
Godlike
Posts: 1686
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:46 pm

Re: MAPS - the best maps made by community

Post by OjitroC » Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:08 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:03 pm
.. Triggering mechanics are working for human player but we don't have too much Bot activity, perhaps only by chance in a combat whatever random situation ...
Perhaps that's deliberate? The readme says "Hazard Tips: Hazards, this map is loaded with them, ones you can see and others you can't see. Through lots of exploring, you'll uncover the usefullness of traps." Possibly the map's intended more for human players than bots?

Too much triggering of traps by bots could affect the gameplay and the enjoyment of playing the map?

User avatar
sektor2111
Godlike
Posts: 4624
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: On the roof.

Re: MAPS - the best maps made by community

Post by sektor2111 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:39 pm

MAP HAS TWO (2) TrapSpringer (for two Hazard kill zones) actors eliminated by themselves due to WRONG settings in one of "best maps" by community, LOL. Also BAD setup in lifts but clearly this was aiming paths over there and overcrowded, you have to be kidding about human player as main goal - I can clearly recognize a guess work. What purpose for adding useless things - self removed ? I don't get the point. THESE ARE NOT best maps in end - good indeed but the best it's not matching the normal setup, seriously. Perhaps I'm clear now.

You, guys nominating "best maps" here, perhaps you have to check more details before claiming "best ones", else you can ask help toward such awesome analysis. Best maps doesn't mean only Colors and Lights... :P. May I end this day with ones of my loved songs ? Okay, headset it's on the head... :rock:

User avatar
papercoffee
Godlike
Posts: 9653
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:36 am
Personal rank: coffee addicted !!!
Location: Cologne, the city with the big cathedral.
Contact:

Re: Discussion about consideration as "best maps made by community"

Post by papercoffee » Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:05 pm

As you might have noticed, I've split the discussion from MAPS - the best maps made by community.

User avatar
sektor2111
Godlike
Posts: 4624
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: On the roof.

Re: Discussion about consideration as "best maps made by community"

Post by sektor2111 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:09 pm

That good, because I can share another one of my thoughts.
Me one I might pick such a nominated map as "best" for looking at the "How To" in learning purpose. Excuse me, but I need to find what exactly here is a "How To", the easier part of map, Traps and Bot Pathing are not the how to do these...
I repeat, in 2020 options are enhanced passing over what was defined "best" in back days. We can have stuff better than this "best" title.

Edit: A ToDo thing
I think in next version of MapGarbage I will have a checker for TrapSpringer actors. Why ? Because if are wrong set in guessing style, these are self destroyed being useless. I have to figure if I need to write a small tutorial logged in how to do settings - good as reminder for me which I might forget how to do the setup. The knowledge has an advantage in front of guessing.

User avatar
OjitroC
Godlike
Posts: 1686
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:46 pm

Re: MAPS - the best maps made by community

Post by OjitroC » Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:51 am

sektor2111 wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:39 pm
MAP HAS TWO (2) TrapSpringer (for two Hazard kill zones) actors eliminated by themselves due to WRONG settings in one of "best maps" by community, LOL.
But is it that big a deal? Both traps work when triggered - neither trap is central to the gameplay - is it something a player would notice when playing the map? Given the size of the map, is it likely that the traps will play much of a role in any case (will two players be in the same place often enough for the traps to be used very often?).

Surely there are larger questions to be considered in judging the quality of the map before turning to two TrapSpringers with wrong settings (which don't appear to have an adverse effect on gampeplay)? There's a danger in focusing on minutiae before looking at the larger picture? It's a fairly large and complex map - is the layout OK for DM? What's the flow around the map like? What kind of DM gameplay does the layout encourage? What about the placement of items, are these well balanced? Does the map work OK with the recommended number of players ... and so on.

Yes, the fact that the settings of the TrapSpringers are wrong is a technical issue but is it an important issue in the overall context?
Last edited by OjitroC on Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
TexasGtar
Experienced
Posts: 138
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:52 pm

Re: Discussion about consideration as "best maps made by community"

Post by TexasGtar » Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:52 am

My thoughts on this are:

Best maps made by community

What does that mean?

Of course it will be different to everyone. There are some maps that are just fun to play. I remember a map called 2 boxes full of lava, it was 2 boxes with lava. But online people loved it and I must admit that it was a lot of fun to play. Is it one of the best maps? If thousands of people loved playing it?

Then you have masterpieces like FNB's Orions Curse where the skybox alone would blow you away with the creativity . the amazing sights sounds complex layout. In fact any FNB map in my opinion is the best. Why? Because of the effort put into it, the amazing ability to transform you to another place with such limited graphics capabilities. I think he is the best mapper ever to open the editor.

As far as the technical side of this argument, I could care less if it isn't perfect as long as it works. You'll never get a map to be perfect in every way. You can tweak bot pathing, item placement, aligning textures, trim ever corner all day and it still won't be perfect. To me, that doesn't matter at all in what I would consider a best map.

What I like is a map that is pretty to look at, and offers an interesting architecture to battle in. A map is basically a room, then a hall to next room, etc. It isn't that complicated. But to make a really good map you have to have good gameplay. If it isn't fun to play, then it doesn't matter how cool it looks. If it looks cool but is boring to play, then you just have a fun to look at map with not much replayability.

It is hard to get gameplay, and scenery and well thought out architecture with battles on several levels to get a great map. And not every part of a great map will be great.

Bottom line is that every player will have their own idea of what is a best map and to them, that is a best map. It doesn't have to be best in everyone's opinion.
==========================================
As far as what is "community" I would say it is everyone except the people who got paid to make the game. Simple as that. The fan base is the community.
And everyone who opened the editor for whatever reason and made a map should be commended as well as the community who helped them get to a point where they could make a "best" map at some point in their mapping career. Even if they never do. I know that without the help of unreal playground, I would have never gotten to the point I did where I was fairly satisfied with some of my creations. There was always people willing to help and that was really special and worth acknowledging that without each others help, we wouldn't have so many possible "best maps"

my 2 cents

Post Reply