ctf bot paths

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hee
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ctf bot paths

Post by hee » Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:56 pm

So I am at the place to put paths on the map. To make sure that the bots can grab the flag, I set up a single path between flags. The path looks good in the editor, all blue and connected to both flags and the spawn points. I then tested with 4 players. After spawning I order my bot to take their flag. He just wanders around like a moron. I then go to the other base and take their flag. They shoot at me while I take it and I retreat along the path. They refuse to follow me. The flags are pretty far apart. I would say about the same as stone forts, but I do not understand what the bots don't like about the path. There is a rather long lift at the entry point of both bases, but the bots will usually get past that (but not even that sometimes). ???

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Re: ctf bot paths

Post by Neon_Knight » Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:58 am

Tried adding two AlternatePath, one per each team, into the map?
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hee
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Re: ctf bot paths

Post by hee » Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:24 am

Thanks for the reply. I did exactly that. Well.. I put the alternate path for each team at the center of the same node path. So there is a split path, but just at the position of the two alternate path actors. In other words, I wanted to make sure that both teams could use the route.

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Re: ctf bot paths

Post by sektor2111 » Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:51 am

Neon_Knight wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:58 am
Tried adding two AlternatePath, one per each team, into the map?
You can have 200 AlternatePaths if FlagBases are not linked as Two-Way. Some mappers are not knowing what they do with flags. Don't push them higher before building paths, simple as that. Leave them alone until map has final paths. After testing you can move them a bit without to rebuild anything.
You must understand a simple logic of DevPath: The closer Navigation Point to the game goal must be reachable, Pawn should collide properly the center of this Node. In this case we are talking about FLAGBASE node and nothing else. If this node has no incoming reachSpec defined because it was too high during paths mapping, then good luck with Bots... and AlternatePaths. Even when FlagBase is higher but has paths, it will still respond at "touch" function before even being well reachable, and Bot will take flag and it goes re-routed back to his Base - if ALL paths to own Base are connected well.
If "Flag" needs to be higher based on design requirements, you can adjust PrePivot - by editing advanced properties of FlagBase actor.

After re-reading description I would like to know if you have Paths Lines linking these nodes... If you PM to me the map, I'll look at it and I will explain what is wrong over there.

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Re: ctf bot paths

Post by hee » Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:04 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:51 am
Neon_Knight wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:58 am
Tried adding two AlternatePath, one per each team, into the map?
You can have 200 AlternatePaths if FlagBases are not linked as Two-Way. Some mappers are not knowing what they do with flags. Don't push them higher before building paths, simple as that. Leave them alone until map has final paths. After testing you can move them a bit without to rebuild anything.
You must understand a simple logic of DevPath: The closer Navigation Point to the game goal must be reachable, Pawn should collide properly the center of this Node. In this case we are talking about FLAGBASE node and nothing else. If this node has no incoming reachSpec defined because it was too high during paths mapping, then good luck with Bots... and AlternatePaths. Even when FlagBase is higher but has paths, it will still respond at "touch" function before even being well reachable, and Bot will take flag and it goes re-routed back to his Base - if ALL paths to own Base are connected well.
If "Flag" needs to be higher based on design requirements, you can adjust PrePivot - by editing advanced properties of FlagBase actor.

After re-reading description I would like to know if you have Paths Lines linking these nodes... If you PM to me the map, I'll look at it and I will explain what is wrong over there.
Thanks for the info, but I don't understand. What do you mean by the flag being high? I actually shouldn't even need an alternate path since the nodes have successfully connected flags and spawn points and at this time there is just one path. I know that the bots need motivation to follow nodes (like weapons, ammo, health), but surely the flag should motivate them.

I tried to get a bot to follow me along the path by ordering him to back me up. He followed for a little, but we got to a point where it was like I was invisible to him and he wouldn't follow. As I mentioned before, at compile the path is blue which should indicate a working path.

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Re: ctf bot paths

Post by sektor2111 » Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:14 pm

A blue path means nothing relevant. There must be TWO reachSpecs (not really shown in plain UT ) - try UT469 or load XC_EditorAdds from XC_Engine in original UT Editor. Go figure arrows and if you have Two Arrows between two nodes. A single missing arrow will cause a break point.
Edit: Let me show you something...
This is what you see in plain Editor: Entirely Irrelevant without to know what is behind those lines. Someone asked me how is possible to work with bots such a map without PathNode. It works.
OriginalView.PNG
Then we can see why does it work using other Editor extensions because these reachSpecs are like arrows. We need TWO for each connection. Are they in reality like here or there is only one line but shown as Blue by the poor original plain UT Editor ? See arrow-type view of paths like in these UT modern times...
DebugView.PNG
Check images in detail - click them and then zoom them.
And then, every single Navigation point is helping Bot without even to load PathNodes if connections are done properly...

One of 300k maps (SlumToxia if I well recall the name) which apparently is looking as having good paths in Editor, in reality did not worked well because BlueFlag was connected one-way. And then Blue to me means a "let me guess", there nothing was showing the bug.
And I think I forgot a lot of maps which were messed up here. If a Node is on a house and another one on the ground connected with a blue Line this doesn't means that anyone can go from the lower node to the upper one. Editor is not even creating a reachSpec here but all is a Nice Blue thing and ONE-WAY, from Up to Down.
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hee
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Re: ctf bot paths

Post by hee » Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:18 pm

So Sektor2111, are you saying that if I place two nodes (apples), the path between them is only one-way?

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Re: ctf bot paths

Post by sektor2111 » Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:17 pm

hee wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:18 pm
So Sektor2111, are you saying that if I place two nodes (apples), the path between them is only one-way?
If are on different height probably 64 UU on Z axis yes, they might be One Way if you cannot reach from lower node to upper node - exceptions are lift combos and bidirectional teleporters - ignoring locations.
Editor does these tests and computing small jump capabilities. If pawn tester fails won't create reachSpec or if Pawn is hitting walls.
Before XC_EditorAdds I used MapGarbage for probing potential suspects. Now its easier because images are showing clearly what's the deal. In a plain cube two PathNodes are generating a normal path having two reachspecs, situation is changing on a different height.
This is from a CTF map, because node from the hill is higher - much higher over ground, there is no arrow heading to that node (LEFT). The other one can be visited properly and was generating a good path (RIGHT).
TwoTypes.PNG
In this map Bots are playing CTF but not really in middle area where this node is breaking this route.
And here is the plain view Blue as the blue sky in a nice summer. Showing NOTHING rammed but... it's not how does it look like.
PlainView.PNG
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Last edited by sektor2111 on Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.

hee
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Re: ctf bot paths

Post by hee » Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:54 pm

(Sektor2111)

This might be my problem. The paths are over some rough terrain. I can navigate through, but it is not trivial. There is also some substantial gain in height. This is a terrain brush with some steep (but doable) slopes. Do you have a recommendation on how to get the bots to go up these slopes?

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Re: ctf bot paths

Post by sektor2111 » Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:05 pm

Before placing nodes, open the class properties in Actor's browser and define collision height/radius smaller, 42 × 20 and not 50 × 46 as they are - don't save any package except the map... when it's ready.
Add them (pathnodes adjusted) for being placed lower a bit. After building paths you can start map - alone. Send Bots in a vacation to not bug you around.
Use commands Rememberspot and ShowPath for testing if you can travel from an area to another area of map. RememberSpot around Blue Flag, and ShowPath from around Red Flag - as an example. If path is not found nothing spawns and game-log will print "Did not find path", else a small lamp spawns on a nearby Pathnode showing your movement request for reaching at RememberSpot.

If Editor doesn't connect these even if are well navigable, you might want to define combos (LiftExit-LiftCenter-LiftExit - with private LiftTags), or you can cause an user made reachSpec, but this is a task doable only in UGold227 (tested there) that Engine has a few extra-functions helping here, and open for user VIA builder PathsLinker. You must have knowledge about reachSpecs for using that because builder will execute all orders without rejections, and borked paths won't help.

hee
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Re: ctf bot paths

Post by hee » Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:32 pm

Thanks much for the information. I will give it a try.

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Re: ctf bot paths

Post by sektor2111 » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:33 am

Don't forget another detail - already described through forum. Very big maps are not supporting navigation due to engine limitations... sample is an older one CTF-AYeti if I recall well the name, in which build time took more than 24 hours - as described in read-me file - wasting time for an entirely useless Pathed map.