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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by Shrimp » Thu May 26, 2022 1:35 pm

I apologise that this has caused you such considerable consternation. I've amended the first post with a warning indicating that incompatibilities may arise for people playing online on existing MH servers, or if mappers introduce new features to their maps.
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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by Neon_Knight » Thu May 26, 2022 2:59 pm

Shrimp wrote:
Thu May 26, 2022 1:35 pm
I apologise that this has caused you such considerable consternation. I've amended the first post with a warning indicating that incompatibilities may arise for people playing online on existing MH servers, or if mappers introduce new features to their maps.
You have done something to be proud of. A product (not even a mod) that stood the test of time and still is at the top, considering the vast amount of stuff made for it and the fact that there are still servers for it. Others can't say the same.

The Unreal community, unfortunately, has an historically huge problem with an abundance of overentitled players.
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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by Feralidragon » Thu May 26, 2022 7:14 pm

Hearing the same complaints about mismatches gets old after a while.

In case you're not aware: package mismatches are no longer an issue since the 469 patch.
If the server is using a different version relative to the one you have locally, the client will just download the one from the server and use that one from cache, seamlessly.

So rather than blame the very author of the mod of actually coming back and making meaningful updates to the base mod (which you should be thankful and be more supportive instead), maybe you should educate yourselves and your player base, however small it actually is, on updating the game to the latest version, and never have that problem to begin with.

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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by papercoffee » Fri May 27, 2022 2:49 am

:facepalm: Srsly?

The modder has to care for potential stupid behaviour of some player?
If they would let the cache alone everything would be fine.

As others already said, with 469 there are no mismatches regardless whatever ripped content you have in your install.

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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by Dennis » Fri May 27, 2022 1:29 pm

papercoffee wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 2:49 am
:facepalm: Srsly?

The modder has to care for potential stupid behaviour of some player?
If they would let the cache alone everything would be fine.

As others already said, with 469 there are no mismatches regardless whatever ripped content you have in your install.
You have a problem reading haven't you? It's NOT ONLY about cache, it's also about backwards compatibility. none of you gods want to come back with an answer on that, not even the author in question, so I take it it's because you have ZERO answers to give.

So, instead YOU decide by majority votes here, that it is the time to take the most played gamestyle and make it incompatible with ut v451 and backwards, meaning the deaths of those versions. So, be proud of yourself, it is indeed a day to remember.
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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by Feralidragon » Fri May 27, 2022 2:16 pm

From what I understood, new MH versions introduce new functionality which can be used in NEW maps, is my understanding correct?

Meaning that old maps remain playable as before (but with bug fixes from the new version), and at most new maps using the new MH version won't work in OLD servers, and that's it.

So my question is: why is that a problem?

If a server owner is willing to have yet MORE maps on top of the thousands that the server already has and which nobody plays, most of them being quite awful to begin with (quantity over quality), why wouldn't the same server owner be willing to just update MH itself?
If that is a requirement for new maps to be played, then so be it, why so much fuss over it?

As for the game versions, indeed, those old versions ought to be killed: it's been literally years since the first 469 patch was released, and there has been a TON of work into releasing those patches and solve the underlying problems with the game and engine.

There's even a brand new editor being created by the community as of now, which works cross-platform (meaning that Windows, Mac, Linux, you will finally have an editor that works in all of them).

If players refuse to update to the new version in this day and age, a version that, while not perfect, it works and solves most issues that plagued the game for years, then that's their own fault, it's not the fault of the community as a whole.

And, if you want to keep your own servers and whatnot in previous versions, there's literally nothing forcing you to update to this new version, you only update anything if you want, it's really that simple.
Even because, if you're willing to remain stopped in time, that's YOUR problem, not anybody else's.

I could understand the outcry if these updates broke the maps themselves, since it would invalidate all the content created up until now, but that's not what's happening here as far as I can tell.

And as for MH having the most players, I cannot believe that to be true for even a second, so I would like to see some verifiable source from you on that.
At the current time, I am yet to see ANY MH server at all at full capacity with real players at any given moment when I actually load and play the game, with many MH servers having between 1 to 4 players, at most, and with half of these running my own mod.

Whereas other game types such as CTF, Siege and others, are still having peaks at full capacity with different players at each time in a regular basis, and even in discord I rarely see anyone talking about or setting up MH servers, it's always generally DM and CTF for the most part.

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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by papercoffee » Fri May 27, 2022 2:48 pm

Dennis wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 1:29 pm
You have a problem reading haven't you? It's NOT ONLY about cache, it's also about backwards compatibility.
Dennis wrote:It doesn't matter what all of you say we "should" or "should not" do, what matters is WHAT players do, and they use cache cleaner, and they download maps from sources where the monsterhunt.u file is included in the zip file.
mhm

backwards compatibility for a cache ripped monsterhunt.u ... You know we are talking about a server side mod, right?
What the player does or didn't is not the concern of the server admin or the modder.
As a Player, keep your install clean from cache ripped garbage or update to version 469.
Feralidragon wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 2:16 pm
And, if you want to keep your own servers and whatnot in previous versions, there's literally nothing forcing you to update to this new version, you only update anything if you want, it's really that simple.
Even because, if you're willing to remain stopped in time, that's YOUR problem, not anybody else's.
THIS^

Edit------------------
Of course there are mapper who would use the new MH and those new maps (if new content is used) would not be compatible with an old version.
If you get a new modern car which is a diesel ...would you also demand from the manufacturer that is can be refuelled with gasoline as well?

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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by OjitroC » Fri May 27, 2022 3:25 pm

papercoffee wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 2:48 pm
Of course there are mapper who would use the new MH and those new maps (if new content is used) would not be compatible with an old version.
Indeed - I think the new content/functionality that could be used in maps is very limited - a quick comparison suggests little beyond the Monster Hunt Objectives. So the scale of the potential problem is limited (very limited I would suggest) - to new maps using the new functionality. New maps that don't use the new functionality remain compatible with older versions of MH.

I've been using Buggie's MHGen tool to 'convert' several maps to MH, using the MH gametype from MH611 and putting in MonsterEnds from MH611 (in the 469b Editor) - they all work fine in 436 (where I use MHv5.3).

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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by sektor2111 » Fri May 27, 2022 4:43 pm

New stuff added in new maps clearly won't work in prior versions - those "objectives". But I think here we can discuss about solutions which actually no mapper will use...
Months ago Higor has explained how to deal with packages/classes without having them - let's say that I did this with my MapGarbage - no more BotPack is required. If mapper wants to do a map backward compatible, one thing to know is that he is one of those in stage for doing this. Here is required some MyLevel experience with old borked MonsterHunt and dealing with certain commands. DynamicLoadObject MonsterHunt.NewClass > None = Older MH - either way, NewClass != None - > Spawn it - SetPropertyText etc (mesages and whatever - not added in map but spawned if exists), if newer MonsterHunt can deal with these AFTER initializing game or else there is nothing to do and problem will never get solved.

Now let me ask a question: How many MH "mappers" are capable to do this since old MH was full filled with junks and a large collection of garbage, experiments, insanity and the rest of debris files ? Sooner of later it will be the question concerning maps repositories: Which map needs which Mod ? Already expanded MonsterHunt versions done over years are having fixes and updating them is NOT needed at all. By example I solved some issues in my XC_MonsterHunt as expanded MH503 which... IS NOT working in such updates because of removals operated - causing gaps. And then ? And then I don't need to update my MH mod because... it's already updated without any break by delivering a CHILD CLASS MonsterHunt, and not altering anything from original integrity of repositories.

MH-Objectives ? Are these really needed ? We can have MonsterEvent broadcasting everything and even triggers for doing this, we can use TriggerLight for turning on green lights around certain placards with objectives. All these years I did not miss such thing. To not forget that these are doable in separate external MH packages/assets for being available in older versions as well - like a new texture/decoration or like some Nexgen plugins. Map requiring objectives will take them from elsewhere not from old package which is not having them, but new MH will know what to do with them concerning new HUD. XC_Engine is a LIVE demonstration in how to keep server compatible with all sort of players - using or not using it, by attaching packages when is needed and not altering original Engine structure.

Finally, I'll check what would be "FINAL" update and later I'll do something if it's needed - perhaps simply recompiling an XC_MonsterHunt based on new assets and keeping my rules - a clean HUD, keeping order of Bot objectives as initially described in MH503 help file and not changing rules - old maps are based on original rule, teaming monsters and keeping them latent in empty games or games not started (even if are 3000 Monsters lol), fixes for Skaarj weaponry - real fixes not bugs moved, etc. etc.

PS: I'll be curious if new updated MH can run properly something with lousy settings like MH-Demons][. MH servers which I build after these years spent with this mod are capable to run such maps flawless - including ScriptedPawn fixes, which are not always doable from MH, outside of UT - all these happening in 440/451 game servers. And then ? And then new "maps" can be edited for backward compatibility - this is admin's task and decision.

Edit:And we have the stage showing what's up when desired objective is discarded and going to next... Door/Wall is still closed, boys and girls...
Demons2_AndWayPointSkipping.png
This sort of stage can use Engine natively for moving in required spot instead of skipping it - in other MH2 this problem is solved for 5-6+ years by myself instead of changing routing rules. I'm expecting to hunt monsters for a better score instead of wasting time with lousy buttons and letting Bots to kill more than me. In another spot they were getting drowned trying to reach elsewhere than to the door-grate opening access to this area.
At this time after 22 years of my marriage, in 27 May 2022 I don't see more reasons to alter my MH repositories - proof reason is above.
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Last edited by sektor2111 on Fri May 27, 2022 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by OjitroC » Fri May 27, 2022 6:47 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 4:43 pm
Already expanded MonsterHunt versions done over years are having fixes and updating them is NOT needed at all. By example I solved some issues in my XC_MonsterHunt as expanded MH503 which... IS NOT working in such updates because of removals operated - causing gaps. And then ? And then I don't need to update my MH mod because... it's already updated without any break by delivering a CHILD CLASS MonsterHunt, and not altering anything from original integrity of repositories.
Sure, you're able to do that but most people can't so having an updated verson of the original MH is useful for them. Of course if they have an already expanded MH version, they don't need to or don't have to to run the update.
sektor2111 wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 4:43 pm
PS: I'll be curious if new updated MH can run properly something with lousy settings like MH-Demons][
The answer to that is no - doors aren't triggered etc. I play it off-line by ghosting through the doors though I don't think I have played it right to the end.

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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by sektor2111 » Fri May 27, 2022 6:55 pm

To not forget another thing regarding to such a stage. In my mod ScubaGear is not exhausted outside of water - is Auto-Activated only in water. You can pick it up outside but it won't go active unless you are jumping in water or automatically reloading the charge in water and keeping you alive. Full credit for idea goes at HIGOR.

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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by Feralidragon » Fri May 27, 2022 7:17 pm

The fact that problems still exist with this new version of MH which are supposedly already fixed in MH2 and other derivatives, is not a good justification to just leave the original MH as it is and just go with MH2.
I mean, how many of those problems are actually "fixed", as in actually "fixed fixed" with proper code rather than hacks on top of hacks that automagically work out?

Otherwise, if we follow that same logic for other stuff, well... you're in for a rude awakening: before 469, Unreal 227 had a lot of fixes for the engine, and someone (Dots I believe) made a working Botpack, so you could pretty much play UT99 inside Unreal.

So then, why exactly do we not focus our efforts in Unreal 227 alone, and have everyone play UT99 there?
And just abandon UT99 completely?

While there are of course some differences that could add to the reasons why we don't do that (legal, mod compatibility, etc), the fact of the matter is that 469 came in to fix, not only a vast majority of problems that Unreal already fixed, but also problems which were still present in both games and engines, and it was actually done better than Unreal in many ways, because rather than having 2 isolated dev teams, we have 2 dev teams that actually work together and share the fixes and ideas that they have, so they can be implemented in both games/engines, and in the best way possible.

The fact of the matter is that fixing the original is always better, always, whenever possible.

Therefore, rather than coming with "heh heh... MH2 fixes A, B, C and D, and MH still doesn't, so I don't need it"... maybe, just maybe... you could report the important issues that exist that MH should fix and how they were fixed in MH2?
Just an idea.

Otherwise, just saying that MH2 fixes more stuff doesn't actually add anything to the conversation, especially considering that MH2 is still dependent on the same faulty old MH, with a bunch of hacks and overrides, thus is not even an actual "MH2" in the sense of the word.

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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by sektor2111 » Fri May 27, 2022 8:12 pm

@Feralidragon
You do have some experience with packages. For this reason let me explain my points in how I see an improved game-type - even other like stock CTF or whatever.
New mod is delegated to count something known specific such as MonsterObjectives (I don't exactly recall the name right now). It will deal with these in HUD.
Okay and ? And these can be placed in a SEPARATE package which allows map to run even in MH 500. Why ? Because said extra package virtually called "MHADDS6.U" will be only a host/storage for extra classes and extra vars without any relation with MonsterHunt.u. When user is updating overwriting original file, the new file MonsterHunt.u or "EMonsterHunt.u" will recognize what is in that package "MHADDS6.u" - what was mapped more exactly. If required assets are found they are linked normally. Old version won't have any deal and just firing game in old style. But... here because new classes were embedded in MonsterHunt.u file, a new map will call them from there and old version will fail to start.

If you ask me about Bot deal, we can use new stuff also from outside. Map has class MonsterWayPoint ? Okay, let's spawn new KeyPoints - copy data and remove olders - strategy a la MH2. Map has new ones from external assets ? Okay, let's count them and use them. There is absolutely no reason to ruin original integrity, all "new comers" can be separately created and used from there - if mod running needs them. If not, they can stay there because are not part of package with game-type.

I have expanded CTFGame without to touch BotPack and using plain original CTF maps aiming BotPack. Why do I need to force a new CTF type of maps to be played only with an updated CTF Mod ??? Just because of "development" ? Seriously, any UT development has solutions because this game is flexible enough for attaching assets in run-time - your NW series are doing these adds without having new NW things in maps.

In other hand by running an updated expanded MonsterHunt, old package can stay loaded because map demands assets from it but we don't execute bad things from there - functions can be rewritten as we do have examples from Epic themselves. Lousy classes can be deactivated if they have no sanity checks, MonsterWayPoint disabled and moved 120 UU lower and using something improved right in location - we know how to add actors exactly where we want in 3D space so spawning them is not a problem at all.

Another old example is ChaosUT - it has additional packages and ONE single main core. It would be better to have nice and good adds coming from outside without to demand maps requiring an updated main package. This is why I don't see any logic in forcing an updated package. All new assets can be hosted in separate files added in map and later can be used without even to have any "warning" in log file.

Another sort of deal.
We do have a map using a class "Bomber" resident in a package out of game-type. Believe me or not, a new game-type can do a scan through actors and if is found one having name "Bomber" by using a simple SetPropertyText for this actor, you can make it to explode without even to call an internal function "DoExplode()". Actor stays in auto state cycling through a bool check. When Bool variable comes True it will call explosion function itself or... using generic actor function "Trigger". Our "Bomber" doesn't even need to be part of package which is running game-type but it can be exploded if an updated Mod knows about it.

Edit:
Back into MH stage - MH2 based on "borked" MH503 is executing it's own functions and not obsolete ones and all story goes different - main character doesn't die in this movie disregarding X bugs from original package - none of them is executed here. Package is only a base for map.
A.I. Expanded MH
- Monster - initial state GameEnded - no crapped weaponry from monsters;
- Game starts - monsters are waking up in rows for preventing recursive crash concerning team;
- Monsters are not really interested to attack other monsters because are a TEAM - slow timers can still check if something goes crazy;
- Monster damaged tells to nearby friends that someone has attacked him and the group will focus on enemy instead of sleeping;
- Skaarj if is still bIsPlayer at taking first damage will go back in monster suit and taking damage;
- a tracker living a short life is testing a replacement for a potential monster in range and will load monster with weapon if this is not part of map;
- monster ghosting because of TriggeredDeath original dumbness is killed forever;
- monster attack mainly nearest visible threat;
Bots:
- new waypoints are depleted as objectives;
- switching order to SearchAndDestroy because Monsters have no Base and AssaultTheBase it's a nonsense in MH;
- projectiles replacements and restoring stupid settings;
- MonsterWayPoint - lousy placement - not exactly reachable:
#1 Test a direct view height for touching capability;
#2 Capture a closer Node in range - I did not know about bHunting in that time but now I'm using that;
#3 Find Path to said closer node - assigned in Mh2 with Script, native in XC_MH based on Engine;
#4 No path = run DM code - pick ITEMS routes - no reason to mock at next objective, path can be locked for some logic reason;
#5 Path is found = Move there only if enemy cannot be seen or no enemy - stupid run and gun is no longer a habit;
#6 Closer to objective = Touching is ignored if Bot it's in a battling session;
#7 No enemy visible or No enemy = allow visiting and move to next objective;
#8 Blown out of paths - go to nearest visible node in 3500 UU range - exactly, not 800 UU as Engine claims;
#9 Someone is moving around a Teleporter and I want there too ? I'm Waiting a little bit - we don't need to telefrag each-other;
#10 I'm talking when things are messed up - no routes.

Forgotten things after ending game:
- disabling pickups;
- disabling replacements;
- stopping other no longer needed executions.

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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by OjitroC » Fri May 27, 2022 11:29 pm

OjitroC wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 6:47 pm
sektor2111 wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 4:43 pm
PS: I'll be curious if new updated MH can run properly something with lousy settings like MH-Demons][
The answer to that is no - doors aren't triggered etc. I play it off-line by ghosting through the doors though I don't think I have played it right to the end.
Actually I was wrong - it works fine in the updated MH. I'd forgotten about the need to find buttons and levers - so no problems with the doors. Played right through to the end, took me just under 40 minutes.

The only slightly annoying thing was the pupae spawning after one had moved away - however one doesn't need to kill them all to complete the map - there were 4 monsters left after I had disposed of the Warlord - the exit opened fine and the MonsterEnd also worked - a "Flawless Victory", which it was indeed.

So a pleasant enough map - not particularly challenging but enough to keep one engaged and neither too long nor too short - something to play when one has an odd half hour or so to fill.

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Re: Monster Hunt 611

Post by sektor2111 » Sat May 28, 2022 6:00 am

Yes, you pushed buttons because they were busy to get drowned... I tested the stage so I could clearly see what was about. Original Path Finding strategy will fail here and Position6 is mandatory for opening area and not just moving to the Position7 because 6 was not valid - Engine's propaganda.
Let me help with some image
P6_InvalidAccess.PNG
I don't know if something was changed in 469 natives but this WayPoint has originally no plain access because the Nearest Node is going through a Mover (check ActorReachable code if you have it - native "CanMoveTo" returns ZERO) - here will work only with bHunting solution with success. All similar situations will fail and it's not like if you try next Position is helpful at something - it's not.
Since I have solved the most of these issues, me one I won't get back to a lousy stage which was not improved but going into a wrong logic - I could see the code, good looking and no efficiency. To summarize, I've done fixes in 2017 or earlier which I don't see in 2022.
To be honest I was expecting to be shocked by new great solutions added to the mod for leaving me with mouth open and making me to clap my hands louder. Nah, I was dreaming... My work concerning A.I. activity operated all these years won't just get dropped and replaced, I don't see any real motivation to do this.

An extra solution
I was interested to implement it recently but... I don't need it. Let's use/define an option for high performance machines "bHighPower".
If user activates bHighPower, controller code should track a nearby Node in Direct Line with WayPoint and looking for upstreamPaths. If we do have them is time to call a Path Finding and testing the whole chain as introduced in Buggie's test builder - his method is faster than mine but it's still needed a check into a linked list. If this node is part of chain, we do have a VALID route. The test is needed inside Bot attraction function because... when other one is calling Engine again one millisecond later, the chain is remapped - that's why a monster machine is needed and it will do something with that CPU not just failing. If probing node fails try to study another nearby one - we need this in other stages similar to LostInTime where nearest Node is... an useless junk, no incoming path.
If Bot is closer to this node brute-force movement to WayPoint. There is no logic to skip WayPoint just because Engine says NO. It's a "Yes" 24/7, doable in 2022 with a superior navigation activity not like in 2002 and getting over Polge's limited solution delivered by C++ natives when actually that code was poorly written with a "single option" type, that's why even in CTF we have a bunch of failures concerning flag because we are not using all Engine's capabilities. No incoming paths to FlagBase ? Try to study another closer Node and move here. No incoming paths to nearest Node from WayPoint ? Try another one.
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