DM- Work in progress- With Map download

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browndl
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DM- Work in progress- With Map download

Post by browndl »

Just a quick early look at another small arena map.


Here is the map if anyone is willing to check it out. As always, I enjoy dialog.

UPDATE:
Took out trap.
Reworked some geometry and bot paths.

NEW DOWNLOAD AS OF 3/2/2023


NEW VIDEO AS OF 3/2/2023
Last edited by browndl on Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: DM- Work in progress

Post by ~{kRiD}~ »

very nice!
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Re: DM- Work in progress

Post by browndl »

Another quick video. Early bot play this time.


Auto merged new post submitted 19 hours 50 minutes later
Re: DM- Work in progress- With Map download
I was wondering if anyone has downloaded the map and had a chance to play? Any thoughts? Comments? Dislikes?
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Re: DM- Work in progress- With Map download

Post by sektor2111 »

Okay, if you are curious about my view I will drop away default usual hands clapping which I see everywhere and let's discuss several aspects.
If it comes to Bot Pathing, it doesn't worth to keep spamming forum with issues that are revealed by PathsChecker under 100 milliseconds - or faster in machines from now days, and subject which is easy after all.
On the other hand, let's look a bit at certain technical aspects of geometry.
DsRoaB_0.PNG
This is what is called a BSPCut, and not one that is found in a spot but it's crossing through entire map. Sometimes these are not a big deal, sometimes they do funky builds - usually I prefer to avoid having a play zone around such "CUT" if possible, and even trying somehow to solve problem before continuing with other brushes. In the most of cases there is a "sick" brush that is in line with BSPCut and probably something like this...

Code: Select all

Begin Map
Begin Actor Class=Brush Name=Brush63
    CsgOper=CSG_Subtract
....
    Location=(X=-792.000000,Y=-255.999695,Z=448.000000)
....
             Vertex   -00520.000000,+00016.000305,+00240.000000
             Vertex   -00776.000000,+00015.999939,+00240.000000
....
             Vertex   -00520.000000,+00016.000305,+00240.000000
             Vertex   -00520.000000,+00016.000305,+00000.000000
             Vertex   -00776.000000,+00015.999939,+00000.000000
             Vertex   -00776.000000,+00015.999939,+00240.000000
Me one I would pay a bit more attention as this aspect.
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Re: DM- Work in progress- With Map download

Post by browndl »

sektor2111 wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:26 pm Okay, if you are curious about my view I will drop away default usual hands clapping which I see everywhere and let's discuss several aspects.
If it comes to Bot Pathing, it doesn't worth to keep spamming forum with issues that are revealed by PathsChecker under 100 milliseconds - or faster in machines from now days, and subject which is easy after all.
On the other hand, let's look a bit at certain technical aspects of geometry.
DsRoaB_0.PNG
This is what is called a BSPCut, and not one that is found in a spot but it's crossing through entire map. Sometimes these are not a big deal, sometimes they do funky builds - usually I prefer to avoid having a play zone around such "CUT" if possible, and even trying somehow to solve problem before continuing with other brushes. In the most of cases there is a "sick" brush that is in line with BSPCut and probably something like this...

Code: Select all

Begin Map
Begin Actor Class=Brush Name=Brush63
    CsgOper=CSG_Subtract
....
    Location=(X=-792.000000,Y=-255.999695,Z=448.000000)
....
             Vertex   -00520.000000,+00016.000305,+00240.000000
             Vertex   -00776.000000,+00015.999939,+00240.000000
....
             Vertex   -00520.000000,+00016.000305,+00240.000000
             Vertex   -00520.000000,+00016.000305,+00000.000000
             Vertex   -00776.000000,+00015.999939,+00000.000000
             Vertex   -00776.000000,+00015.999939,+00240.000000
Me one I would pay a bit more attention as this aspect.
I appreciate any and all comments. So, with that, thanks for taking the time to check out the map.

I do have a couple of questions for you. I am relatively new to the forums so it may be that I have not been here long enough to know, but do you make maps of your own? I ask because I am constantly reading your comments on threads where people are releasing their maps, and while some of your comments can be helpful, most seem to be quite negative, and not a few are just plain rude. So, I am curious to see your work. I would very much like to have something of which to aspire towards. You know, that 100% perfect, awe-inspiring-solid-gold level...

All that kidding aside, I try and keep my eye on the bsp cuts as I am progressing (And yes I am familiar with the concept of Binary Space Partitioning). I also try to pay attention to and maintain some degree of control over the Poly/Node Ratio as I am going. So I do try and be aware of any potential problems that might cause bsp errors or HOMs, and if there are none popping up after 100's of full build all's then I am not so worried about the reds, even if they transect the entire map. And honestly I figured I would have more trouble from brush(s) 234, 235, or 239 as they are just about off the grid entirely. Comparatively brush 63 is a relative gentleman sitting down for a spot of tea.

I am not really looking for any hand-clapping when I release a map (Which you are not seeing any of that on this thread anyway, so I don't really understand the reference). Honestly though I do enjoy hearing that people like the map, that is just common sense. I am not trying to make art pieces, I want people to run around my maps and enjoy doing it. I think most people are not going to dissect a map like you do. If it plays- great! If it plays well- even better! If I don't fall through the floor or die in some bsp error then fantastic. I think that is what most people are looking for.

Having said all of that. I am listening. I have started trying to parse the underbelly of the maps using the tools you have suggested. Most of which I don't believe were available the many years ago that I started trying to make levels. (And you would probably have a stroke if you looked at some of those clunkers lol) So I do thank you for introducing the new tools to me. But I will admit, sometimes, just sometimes, it would be nice to hear whether you played the map and had fun or not, you know, before you give the autopsy.
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Re: DM- Work in progress- With Map download

Post by EvilGrins »

Overall, looks great. Didn't spot any issues.

But something I couldn't figure out... what's that?

I spotted it raising up, and then it went back down again. Very slowly. Couldn't figure out what it was.
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Re: DM- Work in progress- With Map download

Post by papercoffee »

EvilGrins wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:51 am I spotted it raising up, and then it went back down again. Very slowly. Couldn't figure out what it was.
when you jumped on it, look on the first floor... :mrgreen:
It's also in the videos.   
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browndl wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 12:34 amBut I will admit, sometimes, just sometimes, it would be nice to hear whether you played the map and had fun or not, you know, before you give the autopsy.
He might be rude sometimes ...or he sounds rude (language barrier).
But look at it that way... if he wouldn't be interested in your (or any map) he wouldn't try to help. Or write in that thread at all.

@sektor2111 come on don't be so harsh all the time. You can be nice and I know it.
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Re: DM- Work in progress- With Map download

Post by EvilGrins »

papercoffee wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 4:13 amwhen you jumped on it, look on the first floor... :mrgreen:
I was in Spectator Mode.
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Re: DM- Work in progress- With Map download

Post by browndl »

EvilGrins wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:51 am Overall, looks great. Didn't spot any issues.

But something I couldn't figure out... what's that?

I spotted it raising up, and then it went back down again. Very slowly. Couldn't figure out what it was.
LOL. Yeah that's a mover that has a trigger positioned over it that activates the trap door in the center of the lower level. It is all very poorly put together. Was just trying to have a little fun and venture into previously unknown territory for myself. Thanks for checking out the map! The slowness of the return speed is an attempt to time its reset with the reset of the door trap.   
Auto merged new post submitted 4 minutes later
papercoffee wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 4:13 am
EvilGrins wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:51 am I spotted it raising up, and then it went back down again. Very slowly. Couldn't figure out what it was.
when you jumped on it, look on the first floor... :mrgreen:
It's also in the videos.   
Auto merged new post submitted 4 minutes later
browndl wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 12:34 amBut I will admit, sometimes, just sometimes, it would be nice to hear whether you played the map and had fun or not, you know, before you give the autopsy.
He might be rude sometimes ...or he sounds rude (language barrier).
But look at it that way... if he wouldn't be interested in your (or any map) he wouldn't try to help. Or write in that thread at all.

@sektor2111 come on don't be so harsh all the time. You can be nice and I know it.
I figured English was not his first language and try to be understanding of that.

"But look at it that way... if he wouldn't be interested in your (or any map) he wouldn't try to help. Or write in that thread at all." Perhaps.

Thanks for checking out the map and for your response here.
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Re: DM- Work in progress- With Map download

Post by papercoffee »

I think the map comes along very nice.
A few light sources might be missing.
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Re: DM- Work in progress- With Map download

Post by browndl »

papercoffee wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:01 pm I think the map comes along very nice.
A few light sources might be missing.
Thanks very much. About the light sources, any particular spot you were thinking of?
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Re: DM- Work in progress- With Map download

Post by sektor2111 »

@ papercofffee
I wasn't harsh... but I read title "Work in Progress"
and
browndl wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 5:22 am As always, I enjoy dialog.
after that
sektor2111 wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:26 pm ... let's discuss several aspects.
Since a "Work in progress" to me means that here can be done changes, I pointed that something might go ugly if more elements are added at geometry.
I don't see anything abrasive here, neither harsh, and coming with factual data. But I was often confused about mapping threads generally where some members are pointing a few miss-configured things and others can only say "nice" demonstrating that weren't playing too much the product but rushing in a sort of happy jumping which in my view doesn't make any sense. On the other hand, if atmosphere (from map) will be entertaining, the rest of paths problems I can solve in seconds. Like I said and you might know this already, a LiftCenter won't get connected anywhere except LiftExit types, as result Shieldbelt is taken by "kidnapping" during movement to other spot, not as target.

Code: Select all

UT_ShieldBelt1: Searching route...
UT_ShieldBelt1: Route Not Found from PlayerStart0...
...
UT_ShieldBelt1: Searching route...
UT_ShieldBelt1: Route Not Found from PlayerStart1...
...
...
UT_ShieldBelt1: Searching route...
UT_ShieldBelt1: Route Not Found from PlayerStart7...
This spot can also have NORMAL paths over the "trap", but this will need a full rebuild of map. At this "rebuild", it can be seen problems if final geometry will develop issues due to intensive BSPCuts making some fine tuning harder to do.
See this...
DsRoaB_1.PNG
If it's offending what I was pointing, then I apology for posting my views - map's topic was having no answer for some time and that's why I touched topic.
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Last edited by sektor2111 on Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DM- Work in progress- With Map download

Post by browndl »

sektor2111 wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 5:50 pm @ papercofffee
I wasn't harsh... but I read title "Work in Progress"
and
browndl wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 5:22 am As always, I enjoy dialog.
after that
sektor2111 wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:26 pm ... let's discuss several aspects.
Since a "Work in progress" to me means that here can be done changes, I pointed that something might go ugly if more elements are added at geometry.
I don't see anything abrasive here, neither harsh, and coming with factual data. But I was often confused about mapping threads generally where some members are pointing a few miss-configured things and others can only say "nice" demonstrating that weren't playing too much the product but rushing in a sort of happy jumping which in my view doesn't make any sense. On the other hand, if atmosphere (from map) will be entertaining, the rest of paths problems I can solve in seconds. Like I said and you might know this already, a LiftCenter won't get connected anywhere except LiftExit types, as result Shieldbelt is taken by "kidnapping" during movement to other spot, not as target.

Code: Select all

UT_ShieldBelt1: Searching route...
UT_ShieldBelt1: Route Not Found from PlayerStart0...
...
UT_ShieldBelt1: Searching route...
UT_ShieldBelt1: Route Not Found from PlayerStart1...
...
...
UT_ShieldBelt1: Searching route...
UT_ShieldBelt1: Route Not Found from PlayerStart7...
This spot can also have NORMAL paths over the "trap", but this will need some full rebuild of map. At this "rebuild", it can be seen problems if final geometry will develop issues due to intensive BSPCuts making some fine tuning harder to do.
If it's offending what I was pointing, then I apology for posting my views - map's topic was having no answer for some time and that's why I touched topic.
It sounds as if I have offended you friend, and for that I apologize. That was never my intention.
Your comments on this thread are not a bother, and they really are welcome. I truly do appreciate every comment offered. What would be the point of releasing maps if I did not listen to the targeted audience?
You are absolutely correct about the shieldbelt being "kidnapped". I could not get the paths to connect over the movers. I had assumed the paths would not connect due to the mover. If you are suggesting it is due to the bsp cut I will certainly take another look at it.

And finally, you are correct, this is a work in progress, so all suggestions are desirable.

Thank you so much for taking the time to post. Please keep doing so.
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Re: DM- Work in progress- With Map download

Post by sektor2111 »

browndl wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:18 pm I could not get the paths to connect over the movers. I had assumed the paths would not connect due to the mover.
See image above, these are easy only if map supports a normal "rebuild" - no need Extra Pathing "Tools". Maps that are having brushes removed or bad construction, will need another way and Extra Tools for doing something. When geometry does a normal rebuild result, even lightning can be adjusted/improved later.
I found a map that could have paths over long bridges, but heavy to do. Why heavy ? For some reasons (obvious geometry problem) the rebuild of geometry has screwed up walls integrity. I figured later BSPCuts, miss-aligned vertexes and all that. I quit messing with geometry and doing things another way, but... map was still having issues with walls/surfaces (Original Ones) and so I ended in dropping it away.

Paths over bridges/movers(/SecretFloors) are not very described in tutorials like more other information that can be useful for mapping. These Paths are incredible easy to do like those over boxes and spots where Editor is refusing to work for us.
In order to gain these connections there are a few steps:
- select those Movers/Bridges/SecretFloors;
- Open Context Menu and pick up Movers -> ShowPolys;
- Remove Paths - adjust potential needs - define Paths - using console commands;
- now it's time to rebuild geometry (must BE Rebuild) - ONLY Geometry - and no longer touching paths. Here is the stage which need to ensure a normal rebuild of Geometry + Optimizing BSP (might not be need everywhere) + Lightning.
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Re: DM- Work in progress- With Map download

Post by Red_Fist »

Seems to work good, the only other way that I was doing, was putting an add brush below the mover to get paths. Then remove the brush and did not allow paths rebuilt.

BUT, doing it with the way sektor has it, I don't need the brush idea anymore. . Plus if it was me I would put that in the readme if some one else messes with the map.

Oh, ! and if you want MY opinion LoLz, you ought to try and make a MH map. You can make more of a single player type map to tie in traps and kills counters, buttons, and the map.
Last edited by Red_Fist on Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Binary Space Partitioning