New Horizons

Discussions about UT99
hee
Experienced
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:11 am

New Horizons

Post by hee » Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:52 am

Just a fyi. A new version of my map ( with a lot more stuff) is available at ensle.org.

I noticed in tests that one needs to use Glide for best viewing. Make sure to read the info file.

Enjoy!

User avatar
Que
Adept
Posts: 493
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:49 am
Personal rank: ...

Re: New Horizons

Post by Que » Fri Apr 08, 2022 5:41 am

*Join our Discord Here.*
Our most popular mods - MVX , SSB , SmartWFL , UTCmds
Show
~Our Servers~

User avatar
EvilGrins
Godlike
Posts: 8726
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:12 pm
Personal rank: God of Fudge
Location: Palo Alto, CA

Re: New Horizons

Post by EvilGrins » Fri Apr 08, 2022 7:36 am

Que wrote:
Fri Apr 08, 2022 5:41 am
https://www.pngegg.com/en/png-dxtww
I think he meant a new version of this - viewtopic.php?f=12&t=14471 - though why he didn't add onto his old thread I don't know.

It's actually a decent map, very elaborate with bases and platforms that go into the clouds and flying saucers. Could use some pathing improvement.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
http://unreal-games.livejournal.com/
Image
medor wrote:Replace Skaarj with EvilGrins :mrgreen:
Smilies · viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13758

User avatar
OjitroC
Godlike
Posts: 2842
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:46 pm

Re: New Horizons

Post by OjitroC » Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:39 am

The point is that it would be better to have a direct link (like this http://www.ensle.org/ut99/horizons.zip) to the map? Easier and quicker for people to download it.

User avatar
Delacroix
Skilled
Posts: 246
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:00 pm
Personal rank: UMS R&D CEO

Re: New Horizons

Post by Delacroix » Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:58 am

Also, screenshots please!

hee
Experienced
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:11 am

Re: New Horizons

Post by hee » Sat Apr 09, 2022 5:30 am

EvilGrins wrote:
Fri Apr 08, 2022 7:36 am
Que wrote:
Fri Apr 08, 2022 5:41 am
https://www.pngegg.com/en/png-dxtww
I think he meant a new version of this - viewtopic.php?f=12&t=14471 - though why he didn't add onto his old thread I don't know.

It's actually a decent map, very elaborate with bases and platforms that go into the clouds and flying saucers. Could use some pathing improvement.
Thanks for the input.

Nice skin, though you are unarmed. Could be a problem.

I notice from your screenshot, that you are NOT using glide. In glide the cloud layer in the background would almost be seamless with the in-map cloud layer. i would also assume that when approaching the saucers you would have flashes where you can see the interior of the craft. It is quite annoying, but does not occur with glide.

As for the pathing. I am not sure if people realize how ridiculously complicated it was. The terrain is difficult. I was lucky to get the pathing to work as well as it does. However, I would agree that there is room for improvement. There are 205,000 reachspecs in the map. The bots can successfully take the flag along three major paths and they can also traverse crossover paths when needed. Paths were added for unexpected circumstances. For example, if the bot falls into the ocean, either from combat or falling off of a shuttle, paths were added so that they can reenter the conflict.

Automatically merged

OjitroC wrote:
Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:39 am
The point is that it would be better to have a direct link (like this http://www.ensle.org/ut99/horizons.zip) to the map? Easier and quicker for people to download it.
Sorry, my problem, but you fixed it.

Automatically merged

Delacroix wrote:
Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:58 am
Also, screenshots please!
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

User avatar
EvilGrins
Godlike
Posts: 8726
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:12 pm
Personal rank: God of Fudge
Location: Palo Alto, CA

Re: New Horizons

Post by EvilGrins » Sat Apr 09, 2022 6:38 am

hee wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 5:58 am
Nice skin, though you are unarmed. Could be a problem.
He's armed, his weapon is merely amped... look close.

Other little problem with the map is the way out of the structure is through a tunnel with no visible opening. It's a false wall, which if you're unaware of it you'd run right past it.

Maybe put an actual door/opening there.
http://unreal-games.livejournal.com/
Image
medor wrote:Replace Skaarj with EvilGrins :mrgreen:
Smilies · viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13758

User avatar
Shrimp
Skilled
Posts: 174
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:15 am
Location: Australia

Re: New Horizons

Post by Shrimp » Sat Apr 09, 2022 6:42 am

I'm curious what you mean by Glide. Nobody has made Glide compatible hardware for around 20 years.

Your screenshots appear to be using software rendering.
ShrimpWorks
Unreal Archive - preserving over 20 years of user-created content for the Unreal series!

hee
Experienced
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:11 am

Re: New Horizons

Post by hee » Sat Apr 09, 2022 6:48 am

EvilGrins wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 6:38 am
hee wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 5:58 am
Nice skin, though you are unarmed. Could be a problem.
He's armed, his weapon is merely amped... look close.
(ok, saw it)

Other little problem with the map is the way out of the structure is through a tunnel with no visible opening. It's a false wall, which if you're unaware of it you'd run right past it.

Maybe put an actual door/opening there.
Why? Sometimes life is not that easy. Furthermore, in this new version there are even more false walls......suck it up.

BTW the bots know where they are. (except one)

Automatically merged

Shrimp wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 6:42 am
I'm curious what you mean by Glide. Nobody has made Glide compatible hardware for around 20 years.

Your screenshots appear to be using software rendering.
Interesting. In my network here, I have windows 10 and windows 7. They all have glide. I think it is a open GL thing. If you do settings in unreal, it will bring it up as an option.

The only problem is, it will open it in a window. After the game begins, you have to hit escape and manually expand the window to fit your screen.

Unfortunately it is the only graphics where my map will look halfway desent.

With laptops, this is actually the default. That is how I discovered the issue.

User avatar
OjitroC
Godlike
Posts: 2842
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:46 pm

Re: New Horizons

Post by OjitroC » Sat Apr 09, 2022 12:05 pm

An interesting update to a very unusual form of CTF map - some new items and routes added - these of course make for new challenges but the new ways out of the main building also add to the overall complexity of the map.

The issues identified in relation to the first version remain - I won't go over those again except in relation to the shuttles - there is no way of telling where the shuttles go (to which base) except by trying them and the BumpOpenTimed means that a shuttle can take off before one has had a chance to get on to it (which is annoying).

A few comments :
1 Pathnodes 170 and 410 have no outward connections meaning that bots could get stuck;
2 GhandiJetLaunchers 0 and 1, GhandiBlaster0, WarHeadAmmo0, HealthPack1 and WarheadLauncher2 have no paths to or from them (so bots won't pick up those items and if they get to them by accident they won't go anywhere - perhaps it is not intended that the bots should get these items?) - the Flashlight also has no connections but this is not important for bots except that AFAIR there is no path to that route anyway;
3 Trees 11 and 12 and Plant126 are in the Void (the first two have no mesh and so are invisible anyway);
4 Quite a few pathnodes are possibly placed too close together.

Your screenshots appear 'grainy' to me and I suspect that most people won't see the map as you do - this is not a criticism of what renderer you choose to use - people use whatever appeals to them and that's fine. As a matter of interest, this is what I see using D3D9
Horizons.jpg
I can't use Glide - sure, I can select it but it doesn't run and UT defaults to D3D9 - I'm not suggesting that you don't know your own machine but have you checked your UT log to see what renderer is actually running?

Finally if you run Buggie's MapChecker and/or sektor's MapGarbage you can pick up a range of issues that need to investigated and possibly addressed (I've pointed to some of the most significant).

None of this detracts from the inventive and unusual nature of the map which makes for a different but nonetheless fun playing experience.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
sektor2111
Godlike
Posts: 5813
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: On the roof.

Re: New Horizons

Post by sektor2111 » Sat Apr 09, 2022 12:13 pm

With your permission I'll point my thoughts about how PathNodes defining a Water-Route might be placed from my point of view and my edits concerning this aspect. A water-route means "Water-Nodes" not aerial nodes floating over water surface. I'll do a small picture which I'll add here, letting you to figure what I mean...
Water_Route.PNG
If Editor rejects normal Two-Way paths IN-OUT Water, you have to figure some movement factors and try a bit of fine tuning such as:
- find a position for Ground Node - exit-entry from-in water zone;
- find a position for Water Node - exit-entry from-in water zone;
- if they are logically connected but we can see Bot being clumsy in that spot, adjust one of nodes POST-PATHING until you gain a normal movement;
- look if Water surface is not too low - here is needed some editing and rebuilding of geometry;
- if Bot has no movement issues but Editor does ONE-WAY paths - only into Water direction - here can be used a Combo LE LC LE aka LiftExit LiftCenter LiftExit or... LiftExit PainPath LiftExit located how you want but having movement logic in account.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

hee
Experienced
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:11 am

Re: New Horizons

Post by hee » Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:33 am

OjitroC wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 12:05 pm
An interesting update to a very unusual form of CTF map - some new items and routes added - these of course make for new challenges but the new ways out of the main building also add to the overall complexity of the map.

The issues identified in relation to the first version remain - I won't go over those again except in relation to the shuttles - there is no way of telling where the shuttles go (to which base) except by trying them and the BumpOpenTimed means that a shuttle can take off before one has had a chance to get on to it (which is annoying).

A few comments :
1 Pathnodes 170 and 410 have no outward connections meaning that bots could get stuck;
2 GhandiJetLaunchers 0 and 1, GhandiBlaster0, WarHeadAmmo0, HealthPack1 and WarheadLauncher2 have no paths to or from them (so bots won't pick up those items and if they get to them by accident they won't go anywhere - perhaps it is not intended that the bots should get these items?) - the Flashlight also has no connections but this is not important for bots except that AFAIR there is no path to that route anyway;
3 Trees 11 and 12 and Plant126 are in the Void (the first two have no mesh and so are invisible anyway);
4 Quite a few pathnodes are possibly placed too close together.

Your screenshots appear 'grainy' to me and I suspect that most people won't see the map as you do - this is not a criticism of what renderer you choose to use - people use whatever appeals to them and that's fine. As a matter of interest, this is what I see using D3D9
Horizons.jpg
I can't use Glide - sure, I can select it but it doesn't run and UT defaults to D3D9 - I'm not suggesting that you don't know your own machine but have you checked your UT log to see what renderer is actually running?

Finally if you run Buggie's MapChecker and/or sektor's MapGarbage you can pick up a range of issues that need to investigated and possibly addressed (I've pointed to some of the most significant).

None of this detracts from the inventive and unusual nature of the map which makes for a different but nonetheless fun playing experience.
Thanks for the input. I have taken care of the issues you mention and will update the map here in a few days after I tweak the path nodes a bit.
The unobtainable items are by design. Though I might go ahead and path out to warheadlauncher2. I do not want to path the water tunnels. If I entice the bots to enter them, it will draw them away from guarding the main flag paths. I did not path to the jets because the bots don't know how to use them.

Shrimp and you have it right. I am using software rendering. I assumed it was glide because there is a glidedrv.dll in the system folder. However it fails and switches to SoftDrv.dll and Galaxy.dll. I also have D3D which I was using, but it looks better with software. Notice on my screen shots the background clouds merge better with the in-map clouds. It's weird, because if I choose software, it crashes, but if I choose something that it doesn't have, it defaults to software without crashing.

Automatically merged

sektor2111 wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 12:13 pm
With your permission I'll point my thoughts about how PathNodes defining a Water-Route might be placed from my point of view and my edits concerning this aspect. A water-route means "Water-Nodes" not aerial nodes floating over water surface. I'll do a small picture which I'll add here, letting you to figure what I mean...
Water_Route.PNG
If Editor rejects normal Two-Way paths IN-OUT Water, you have to figure some movement factors and try a bit of fine tuning such as:
- find a position for Ground Node - exit-entry from-in water zone;
- find a position for Water Node - exit-entry from-in water zone;
- if they are logically connected but we can see Bot being clumsy in that spot, adjust one of nodes POST-PATHING until you gain a normal movement;
- look if Water surface is not too low - here is needed some editing and rebuilding of geometry;
- if Bot has no movement issues but Editor does ONE-WAY paths - only into Water direction - here can be used a Combo LE LC LE aka LiftExit LiftCenter LiftExit or... LiftExit PainPath LiftExit located how you want but having movement logic in account.
Thanks for the info.
This is an interesting point. When the bots fell into the water without the nodes they would just sort of wonder around underwater until they drowned. So I was afraid to put the nodes under water because I wasn't sure the bots would come up for air. So I placed them just barely above the water (not so high as your example seems to indicate unless the water was shallow and the bot was already walking). They seem to traverse the water OK for now. My biggest path problems are bots getting stuck at various nodes in rough terrain. There are 3 spots that are problematic, I have changed the height of the nodes and it helps, but under some circumstances they still get stuck. Another issue is getting them to choose the flag paths equally. I change the weight on various alternate path nodes, but it doesn't seem to change the bots path selection.

User avatar
sektor2111
Godlike
Posts: 5813
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: On the roof.

Re: New Horizons

Post by sektor2111 » Sun Apr 10, 2022 7:10 am

If you are placing PathNodes with the Leafs outside of water with regard to deep water spots they won't get drowned at all, they swim with "head-region" out of water. In other hand Nodes from water should point Bot outside, a water route is too slow for a CTF match.

User avatar
OjitroC
Godlike
Posts: 2842
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:46 pm

Re: New Horizons

Post by OjitroC » Sun Apr 10, 2022 10:23 am

hee wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:49 am
... My biggest path problems are bots getting stuck at various nodes in rough terrain. There are 3 spots that are problematic, I have changed the height of the nodes and it helps, but under some circumstances they still get stuck.
That may be due to the geometry - there was a point on one of the streams where I got stuck and had to 'fly' out.
hee wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:49 am
Another issue is getting them to choose the flag paths equally. I change the weight on various alternate path nodes, but it doesn't seem to change the bots path selection.
It may or may not be relevant but there is a recent post by Buggie about the coding of AlternatePath - essentially they are only used in certain circumstances.

hee
Experienced
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:11 am

Re: New Horizons

Post by hee » Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:27 am

OjitroC wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 10:23 am
hee wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:49 am
... My biggest path problems are bots getting stuck at various nodes in rough terrain. There are 3 spots that are problematic, I have changed the height of the nodes and it helps, but under some circumstances they still get stuck.
That may be due to the geometry - there was a point on one of the streams where I got stuck and had to 'fly' out.
hee wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:49 am
Another issue is getting them to choose the flag paths equally. I change the weight on various alternate path nodes, but it doesn't seem to change the bots path selection.
It may or may not be relevant but there is a recent post by Buggie about the coding of AlternatePath - essentially they are only used in certain circumstances.
These are some problems. With the paths, in this current tweak. I carefully counted the nodes for various paths and was able to change things where I would make sure that the preferred path had fewer nodes to the target. That seemed to work. So in the new version of horizons][2 now available, the paths are more balanced.

Automatically merged

sektor2111 wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 7:10 am
If you are placing PathNodes with the Leafs outside of water with regard to deep water spots they won't get drowned at all, they swim with "head-region" out of water. In other hand Nodes from water should point Bot outside, a water route is too slow for a CTF match.
Another good point. When I was pathing the map sometimes it caused the bots to go through water when they didn't need to. So I tried (and now think I have succeeded) to keep the main paths out of the water. The nodes might be fewer through the water, but it definitely is not quicker. Of course, if the bot ends up in the water, they have to get out. So it was a challenge to path the bots out of the water, but at the same time prevent such paths from being utilized as a main route (which did occur sometimes in testing).

The new version is now available where I have corrected some pathing issues (everything else remains the same).