DM-Deck16][ improved paths

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Buggie
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Re: DM-Deck16][ improved paths

Post by Buggie » Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:15 am

Unfortunately, there is no standard way to manually set the connection between the points, except through such a pseudo-teleport. Or I don’t know about it. Therefore, at the moment there is no other solution. Maybe in future builds 469 will add the ability to build a better navigation network.
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Also You can try tune server / mutator setup.

Or ask devs for make this feature configurable in next build.

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sektor2111
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Re: DM-Deck16][ improved paths

Post by sektor2111 » Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:51 am

Or address ONLY STOCK teleporters, exactly, this is what I see in other mods. Probably swJumpPad doesn't work here as well for similar reasons... lol Woot maps.
Let's ruin what community was doing...

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Que
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Re: DM-Deck16][ improved paths

Post by Que » Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:08 am

bots use teleporters ok with NewNet.
using @Buggies initial version Bots1 Map bots reach redeemer fine.
unfortunately can't use any new versions running with Teleporter Hack if using NewNet.
Cheers.

pity this version does not have the path down to amp from ramp leading to Thighpads.
then it would be perfect.
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Buggie
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Re: DM-Deck16][ improved paths

Post by Buggie » Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:08 am

As I say - it can not be done normally without teleporter hack.
UEd do not want connect path nodes. So need fix it or use some hacks. Like teleporter or manual build paths (build paths and drag actors) - which not survive any rebuilt. And after any rebuilt need do this work again.

You can fill request for improvement network build alghos on github for next patches 469. And hope it will be done.

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Que
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Re: DM-Deck16][ improved paths

Post by Que » Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:21 am

Buggie wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:08 am
As I say - it can not be done normally without teleporter hack.
UEd do not want connect path nodes. So need fix it or use some hacks. Like teleporter or manual build paths (build paths and drag actors) - which not survive any rebuilt. And after any rebuilt need do this work again.

You can fill request for improvement network build alghos on github for next patches 469. And hope it will be done.
Ahh ok , gotcha.. nevermind at least Bots1 is still a huge improvement on the default map :)
sektor2111 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:51 am
Or address ONLY STOCK teleporters, exactly, this is what I see in other mods. Probably swJumpPad doesn't work here as well for similar reasons... lol Woot maps.
Let's ruin what community was doing...
Jumppads were also affected with NewNet Compensation however for the most part they work ie; woot.

NewNet compensates for pings upto and over 300ms.. therefore alot of changes needed to be made to various actors.
its not perfect but allows descent play for international players.
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sektor2111
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Re: DM-Deck16][ improved paths

Post by sektor2111 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 7:46 am

And it should provide a configuration list with classes that have to excepted from being replaced. A good mod should provide exceptions or fallback from doing changes if these are damaging. If these mods are doing a blind work screwing everything then they can only offer LIMITATIONS and very sorted maps.

@Buggie - Manual reachspecs are already doable in 227 (there I did changes) - I wrote a tool for that, operational, maybe you can improve code or put some more goodies there... UT maps are improved X times if user takes control over blind automated scripts. The working strategy means adjusting a few XC paths (destroying abominations) instead of hundreds of EPIC paths...
You can use the clocking system from XC_Core for testing a scan through a simple network VS what EPIC does and compare execution times...

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Re: DM-Deck16][ improved paths

Post by Buggie » Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:03 am

Beta3:
DM-Deck16][bots3.7z
- different class for paths fix, so must be no problem with NewNet.
Bots:
- more human movement.
- Jump to udamage from thighpads.
- jump to minigun from bio.
- walk between boxes near shock.
- jump to pulse from big box.
- others improvement.
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sektor2111
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Re: DM-Deck16][ improved paths

Post by sektor2111 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:22 am

Do you really need all these ? In beta19 will be 100.000 reachspecs ? May I ask why ? I'm curious what would you do in map MH-GardenOfDeath then if this "tiny" map needs 5000+ specs for NO PURPOSE.
NotMe.PNG
Nope, I'll use what I do, and normal specs for all creatures not only those with BRAIN_Human and not this charge.
Good luck with next ones, I'm out.
If you guys are interested, I'll edit a Deck16 with 6000+ PathNodes and 1.000.000 reachspecs. If it's a competition in who is loading more data in a lousy map, then let's see what's next...
Edit: Until to show more craaazy stuff, we can take a tour through this one. MORE REDUCED in navigation charges and geometry rebuild in 451b.
DM-Deck16_rS596.7z
Doesn't have more teleporters than original ones, but still having "options" not really seen in plain Devs. Only 596 specs are making Bot game and not 7000+.
Do they enter the network or not ? They do... because this map is NORMAL, that's why.
Clumsy route has been removed - replaced.
NewNet UBER strategy in solving Teleporters will do sucks as usual at original "To-Redeemer" Teleporter which is flawless in plain UT. I'll drop a fix another time, that's not a priority for me, I'm not going to mitigate effects done by poorly written mods spread around. I might address NewNet dumb tweaks using PathsLinker but... I think I'm not totally interested about it.
Edit2: However, I think here NewNet A.I. damaging effects are discarded and Bots probably will use teleporter. If they don't, say thanks to NewNet team.
DM-Deck16_rS598_NN.7z
According to title of the topic, this is what I see in terms "Improved Paths" and not More Useless paths.
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f7r
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Re: DM-Deck16][ improved paths

Post by f7r » Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:43 pm

I've tried this. Very well! On the map 596, 16 masterfuls behave more than decently. And my old crap setup with heavily overmutated UT run on this without lags and any bot's stuck. Thank you, sector2111, this is very interesting!

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Que
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Re: DM-Deck16][ improved paths

Post by Que » Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:49 am

Thanks guys will test these new Beta's.
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Re: DM-Deck16][ improved paths

Post by sektor2111 » Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:09 am

Let me know if in 598 reachspecs version NewNet and teleporting at redeemer works for Bots or it doesn't work. Out of NewNet mods 596 reachSpecs version should be enough.

Mention: These aren't for Classic game setup. There jumping is limited - I doubt about getting weapons from boxes, there is a different solution, but... no... classic Level in plain servers might do funky stuff in some maps so I'm not bother for that level of difficulty, Bots are too clumsy and too limited over there.

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Que
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Re: DM-Deck16][ improved paths

Post by Que » Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:58 am

yup works good , teleporter to redeemer works as intended.

you moved the armour down half way into the crate for some reason.. looks funny (was better hovering above the crate) is this so Bots can access it better or a mistake?
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f7r
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Re: DM-Deck16][ improved paths

Post by f7r » Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:55 pm

Just tested bot3 from Buggie. The same setup as before. Bots are subjectively weaker. Sometimes they got stuck (maybe for a second) at the spawn point. Quite often, the bot passing me stupidly ignored me. Weapons are picked up, ammo are not always. But interestingly, they began to arrange mass battle in unexpected places. And in general they are dangle like crazy singed. Cool and funny.

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Re: DM-Deck16][ improved paths

Post by Buggie » Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:34 pm

When the navigation network is very simple, bots have no choice. They only move where there is a path.

Like a train on rails.

I was always amazed at how bots cannot walk past the ammo and always pick them up if they pass by.

I decided that they were stupid and could not do otherwise.

Now I understand that this is due to the fact that the navigation network is too simple. They don't want to pick up ammo, but there is simply no other way, so they do not drop through the ammo, becoming an easy and predictable target.

Another problem with a simple network is unnatural movement.

See how the bot picks up the ripper in the sektor's variant.
scr_1604410674.png
He runs down the center of the corridor, past the ripper. After that, it turns back and runs to the ripper or ammo.
Because this is how the navigation network laid here.

Where a human runs near to a wall, the bot will always run in the center, since there is no other way.

And there are a lot of such things. I tried to eliminate them.

At the moment I am aware of one problem - cycling at the beginning of the first ramp to bio. Bot for some reason runs back and forth. Apparently, when moving from point to point, the best path changes to one that goes through the previous point.

Now bots can make unexpected decisions because the network is complex.
For example, enter the teleport without touch the rocket launcher.
Walk around the boxes near to the wall.
Move in a corner near the wall, not in the center of the aisle.
And so on.
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Also what about NewNet? Beta3 fix teleport issue?
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Look at this:
scr_1604410749.png
How will move bot after respawn here?
You think he is come for ripper? Even if he decide do this he move like train on rails, not like human do.
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Compare with this:
scr_1604410922.png
If bot want he can going to ripper like human do.
Alsi he can walk directly down to shock if want.
Also pay attention on turn after ripper. There bot can run near wall which make he is less visible and less weak for kill.
---
Look at this:
ezgif-7-4a47001c25aa.gif
It is normal? Like human do?
Also pay attention where bot ended. He run at center of corner. Not near wall.
----
Compare with this:
ezgif-4-8a9aa4eed6d9.gif
You even can be not sure bot this perform or human.
In previous example nobody can mess up "this" with human.
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OjitroC
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Re: DM-Deck16][ improved paths

Post by OjitroC » Tue Nov 03, 2020 3:15 pm

That's very interesting and illuminating - it really goes to the heart of what one is trying to do with bot pathing.
Buggie wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:34 pm
I was always amazed at how bots cannot walk past the ammo and always pick them up if they pass by.
The default bots do that but sektor's MBots don't (always) - playing TDM with MBots is good because they obey orders much more and will follow a player to the extent of not picking up stuff (there's nothing worse than leading a small group of bots in a particular direction and finding them going off to pick up stuff) - MBots may not even pick up health when they need it and it is indeed difficult to get them to do so sometimes. It may be that sektor's pathing is done with MBots rather than default bots in mind but I don't know of course.